[FortyFive]

When we join the Military Service we swear allegiance to the flag and to uphold the Constitution. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is the sword hanging above our heads to deal a swift blow if we deviate from the norm.
A young person is recruited from high school with little knowledge about politics and life in these United States. His educational path is geared toward moving through the system with least impact upon anyone’s career. The sales pitch from the Military will be to serve with honor and to gain educational benefits to be used when your enlistment is up. So we now have a gung ho very young person enlisting based upon a pretty picture complete with flag and fellow serviceman charging through desert on tanks, aircraft dropping bombs on buildings and a cool one at the end of a day. These are young people, 19 to 20 years of age.
Reality strikes you may suffer loss of life limb and certainly happiness. You gave your all for your country and here is what your country is doing for you in California, New Jersey, Mass. Maryland and other similar states. They have taken your constitution from you or a great part of it. Your supreme court now allows developers to take your property by flashing big bucks. You find that your education is going to cost more than an illegal resident person will pay. The government will track your every move if you attempt to buy a firearm.
Here is the question! Do you think especially in those states where you cannot exercise your constitution rights to buy a firearm and to carry a firearm that you should be able to opt out of the Military and walk away with a normal discharge??? Why give your life for politicians who are taking away your rights as a citizen.
Please don’t blast me, I have served over 20 years and never had thoughts like these until time allowed me to see a wide vision of where we are heading.
Thanks.

 

[rstickle]

Here is the question! Do you think especially in those states where you cannot exercise your constitution rights to buy a firearm and to carry a firearm that you should be able to opt out of the Military and walk away with a normal discharge??? Why give your life for politicians who are taking away your rights as a citizen.

NO! That is a states rights thing. I think that military service should be universal......... Everyone serves, kind of like the old draft, but everyone.

Please don’t blast me, I have served over 20 years and never had thoughts like these until time allowed me to see a wide vision of where we are heading.
Thanks.

I did over 20 also, and what bothered me was feeling more and more that we sould be out of Vietnam. (I was still in at the time.) I was in basic when the Gulf of Tonkin thing went down.

People change, but everyone should have the experence:wink:

Happy Fourth! :smilie_fl

 

[FortyFive]

Thanks for the response-good one
You said
"I did over 20 also, and what bothered me was feeling more and more that we sould be out of Vietnam. (I was still in at the time.) I was in basic when the Gulf of Tonkin thing went down."

Yep, that was tough times for the guys serving, lives really got screwed up pretty bad and the loss of many good Americans.

 

[CombatEffective]

I don't believe in mandatory military service at all. I don't think it would help the military at all. In fact, I think it would hurt the military by having lots of people there that didn't volunteer for it. I think that would lead to a degraded level of training and readiness even if the numbers were greater.

I also reject the notion that military service is the only way to "serve" your country. I didn't serve in the military. I was medically disqualified. However, I have been a police officer for over six years. I'll never be convinced of the fact that public safety employees are any less than military members. I know y'all aren't implying that though.

It should also be taken into account that there are people that due to family situations that just can't uproot and go of for foreign service. Take a young person that lives on a family farm or have parents/siblings/children that they are responsible for: I think it actually hurts the country to take them away from their family obligations.

Also, defending the homefront is one thing and going to defend someone else's home is another. My father did 27 years in the Army. He went in as an E1 and left as an O5. When I was attempting to join the military my father was against it. I asked him why he did his time but didn't want me to do a tour. His exact statement was (and take into account we live in GA), "If a foreign army lands at Savannah I'll grab a weapon and stand a post. If it lands in Los Angeles, call me when they reach Birmingham."

There are plenty of ways to serve domestically, many of which aren't even official. I've just never been comfortable with a mandatory service requirement. Then it isn't service. It's servitude.

 

[FortyFive]

Keep em coming guys, we got many smart people with varied experience on this board that can look at this subject from various ways.

 

[Euclidean]

You can argue "State's rights" all you want to, but if a state law violates the rights given to you in a federal document, i.e. The Constituition, then it should logically be annulled.

The main cause of the Civil War was a fight for economic power, just like every single other war in history. BTW fighting for economic power is not in itself immoral, just so we're clear. But it also established that the states cannot annull federal law. To me, this includes your rights.

I have to agree the military should get to opt out. If I was in the service I would be personally insulted by what's happened in this country. I don't idolize the military but I have enough sense at least to realize that I should be ashamed of myself. I let this government take these things away from me that were literally purchased with the blood of all branches of the service.

Then again, to play the devil's advocate with my own argument, do I do what I do for gratitude? No, I do it because I think it's right and I don't ultimately care if anyone approves or is grateful or not. Unless they destroy the education system, which they're trying to, I'll still be a part of it no matter how much ingratitude I'm faced with.

As for compulsory service, I think it'll come back into effect. My generation does not remember Vietnam, we don't remember the World Wars, we don't remember a draft board, and selective service is something you mail off when you're 18 so you don't risk getting in trouble. As a matter of fact I'd speculate most males my age aren't even registered with selective service because no one's really checking.

I think in a few decades, the trend of not being able to staff the military will be intolerably worse and some Congressman will revive the draft. And by then the WW2 generation will be gone, the Vietnam generation will be gone, and we'll all think it's a great idea and sign off on it.

Either that or some crazy crap happens that causes WW3. Don't laugh it really could happen... one rogue missile launch is all it would take. You can get your bottom dollar we'd all be getting the summons to appear before the draft board in the mail. The next Big One is going to be bad, real, real bad.

 

[Bumper]

I think you need to remember that you serve in the military to serve your country, not necessarily your government. When I was in, I heard alot of discontent with the government; I heard no knocks on the country itself.

Like CombatEffective, I think there are other ways to serve your country, but I do believe there should be a draft. You could, however, be drafted for military service, other than military service or simply not inducted if the need for resources were not there. I have to admit I like the model that Switzerland uses. When you are 18 or 19, you are sent to training and then released. Every able man is part of the military, with exceptions. If needed for military action, they could be called on very short notice.

I also believe there should be a way for former service people to re-enlist without regard to their age, if their health and physical abilities are still intact. I would go in a heartbeat...

 

[FortyFive]

Aw Bumper no fair about reenlisting, you just want to play with tanks again. :smile:

 

[Bumper]

Aw Bumper no fair about reenlisting, you just want to play with tanks again. :smile:

No, it's not that I want to "play with tanks again", I want to unfurl some rags. Actually, I would rather be on the ground as the situation is now. :wink:

 

[rstickle]

I don't believe in mandatory military service at all. I don't think it would help the military at all. In fact, I think it would hurt the military by having lots of people there that didn't volunteer for it. I think that would lead to a degraded level of training and readiness even if the numbers were greater.

So, back in the Vietnam era we were poorly trained and had degraded readiness because wewere drafting? I'm sorry, I don't see that. What I think we had was more bitching, but a broader force. I also think it was probably better educated. Of course that is my opinion, and I retired from the military about 20 years ago. On the other hand I was in a job that had very few people, and they stay in touch, and the diferences in training I hear about now scare me.

I also reject the notion that military service is the only way to "serve" your country. I didn't serve in the military. I was medically disqualified. However, I have been a police officer for over six years. I'll never be convinced of the fact that public safety employees are any less than military members. I know y'all aren't implying that though.

Would it have hurt your future to have been a MP for a couple years before you became a Police (Public Safety) oficer? Now of course military service isn't the only way to serve. If for medical reasons you can't serve.... Well, you just can't!

It should also be taken into account that there are people that due to family situations that just can't uproot and go of for foreign service. Take a young person that lives on a family farm or have parents/siblings/children that they are responsible for: I think it actually hurts the country to take them away from their family obligations.

That is expected of buth the Reserve and National Guard troops right now. Sadly I don't think most of them expected it. And of course you'd say it's expected of Regular troops, but that answer is "they asked for it".

<SNIP>

There are plenty of ways to serve domestically, many of which aren't even official. I've just never been comfortable with a mandatory service requirement. Then it isn't service. It's servitude.

I guess to me, it just seems that there are a great majority that don't serve in any capacity.

 

[rstickle]

I think you need to remember that you serve in the military to serve your country, not necessarily your government. When I was in, I heard alot of discontent with the government; I heard no knocks on the country itself.

Wish I'd said that!

I have to admit I like the model that Switzerland uses. When you are 18 or 19, you are sent to training and then released. Every able man is part of the military, with exceptions. If needed for military action, they could be called on very short notice.

That was one of the countries I was thinking of. I think Israel has a similar system, but they also conscript women, which is another subject.

 

[CombatEffective]

Sir, I am medically disqualified. I actually tried to join several times through three different services.

You can't compare the Vietnam Era to today. It just isn't the same in many respects. Most of the military officers I know through my father, my classmates at the military college I attended, and the fellows I met in ROTC are all against a draft because they don't want to train soldiers/sailors/marines that are forced into servitude (it ain't service if you don't have a choice). As for having been an MP if I had been eligible, I have trained many former service members that had a very hard time adjusting to civilian police work after having come from the military. So many of them have the unit mentality and can't function independently or want act without orders. That of course is a very GENERAL statement and does not apply completely across the board, but it has been my observation as an FTO that has trained several and have one in the pipeline now.

As for expecting it, every member of the military currently signed a contract to be in the military. It stinks that they are being spread so thin and are going through the hardships that they are going through. My own father would have been called back into service for the Gulf War had he not had heart surgery. So, I'm not being cynical here. My own family faced this for 27 years when my father was in the service.

In my opinion, if you are having to draft, maybe you should think about the wars you are fighting. Yes, I know the US had drafts in WWII. My grandfather and two of his brothers went. One is still in Germany.

I don't want anyone here to take me wrong. I come from a military family with mine being the first generation not to join in many generations, but as stated previously it was due to medical reasons on my part. My brother never tried to join, but he wouldn't have been taken either.

Push your Congressmen to create a reserve Border Patrol and I'll join, but even if I were medically cleared today I wouldn't join the military. Being a "peace keeper" (not referring to the current actions against the terrorist states/orgs) is just not my style. The military should be like a caged, crazed but cunning beast that paces back and forth in its cage snarling and growling that renders utter fury when it is released. When the fight is over, its wounds should be treated and it should be put back into the cage until it is needed again. It should not be writing parking tickets, planting flowers, and serving as meals on treads.

 

[LenS]

I'll offer my opinion here, as someone who was medically disqualified from military service. Part of my opinion is based on having spent a total of a month in Israel during two trips (1989 and 2000) and meeting and talking with some of their soldiers.

I think mandatory service for ALL adults would be a big plus to true security in the US, especially in fighting the war against terrorism. For those of us who were medically unsuitable to serve, we should still be required to serve, perhaps in a different way "limited duty" vs. combat. The Israeli system is sort of a "reserve" system where their lives generally don't go on hold for years, but just serve x weeks at a time, when they aren't in a state of war.

Think of the advantage of having every adult trained on what to look for to spot a terrorist BEFORE they hit us! That is what Israel has, all soldiers learn what to look for and what to do when they spot a suspicious person. In the US, most all people are in "terminal condition white", oblivious to all around them, we're trained to let LE handle all problems and defend us as opposed to us defending our society/government/country.

In the 24 years that I have served in LE, no useful training in what to look for in a terrorist or even a criminal has been taught in any course available to me. Even with the current focus on anti-terrorism training, I have had a city police commissioner (friend of mine) admit to me that ONLY the large cities are getting the training and funding for same (as of 6 months ago).

 

[Scott]

The military is rejecting people for enlistment then they go out and JOIN A POLICE FORCE. Don't know 'bout you but that tells me something. And it's not what I want to hear as a person that might have to be "rescued" by a LEO.-------

There are a lot of things that will cause you to be disqualified from military service that have no relevance on police work. If someone meets the requirements of the police (or fire) department to serve in that capacity, then I say fine. Whether or not they were medically declined by the military is irrelevant. Maybe you should contact your local departments to see what those standards are, and if they don't measure up, then work to change them. Departments everywhere have different standards.

-Scott-

 

[RSSZ]

The military is rejecting people for enlistment then they go out and JOIN A POLICE FORCE. Don't know 'bout you, but that tells me something. And it's not what I want to hear as a person that might have to be "rescued" by a LEO. I joined in late '64. Even before I graduated HS. I retired in "87. My time in, I looked at it as SERVING MY COUNTRY. Does a educator,civilian doctor,LEO,or "sanitation engineer" serve his country in the same manner as I did ?? I SAY NO. In this country that I fought for,I find that one of the things that I fought for, is my right to like and dislike things to a certin degree. Without openly disrespecting someone I have the right to like or dislike them for their race,color,creed,or religion. The same holds true for men and women that have or have not served and/or have not even tried to serve in ANY branch of service for any length of time. I you've served your 4 year hitch and got out, thats fine by me. I have alot of respect for the women that have served. They had a rough time of it. But----- for the males that haven't served-----I start out NOT having as much respect for them as the males that have served their country. Why ??? cuz that's my RIGHT. The right that, by the way, I fought for. HOW ABOUT YOU ????-------

 

[CombatEffective]

Sir, I wasn't going to discuss specifics of my medical condition, but I will just to shed a little on the subject. I have a very small patch of psoriasis on the little finger on my left hand. It is nothing like the stuff you'll see if you do a search for it on the net as those are exreme cases. However, it is still psoriasis. This is an automatic disqualifier for military service. Does that little patch of rough skin on my finger disqualify me from being a police officer? I think not. I have a fellow officer in my department that passed every step in the process to get into the Naval Academy until they found a patch of it on his back and disqualified him. We're both pretty good police officers. He's a member of our SRT, and he's pretty good at it. I'm a detective. I've won awards from the community for my efforts in DUI enforcement when I was in uniform. I'm a firearms instructor and a munitions specialist for our riot squad. I say we've both done pretty good even though we were rejected by the military. By the way, I also have a masters degree and he will have his soon. The particular academic program is ranked #3 in the country just behind Harvard's program and ahead of the rest of the Ivey League and schools all of the important people attend. I think that shows we are both pretty intelligent.

Before you hurl broad accusations maybe you should look and see just what will disqualify a person from military service. You'll find that many conditions that will do just that really have no impact on a persons daily life or ability to perform as a police offier, firefighter, EMT, or many other such jobs.

 

[CombatEffective]

I'm not going to leave it that. I'm going to add one more. We have an officer in my department that was a USMC Reservist. He was activated for duty in Iraq this time around. While over there, he was injured in an accident at a loading dock. He was on the dock and had to dive out of the way when a bomb, yes a bomb, that was being unloaded from the back of a truck fell over. He got out of the way but severly injured his knee in the process. He was shipped home and then to CA for medical treatment. He had a couple of surgeries and had to wear a brace for a while. He did the rehab thing and had to wear a brace or a while. A year later he was medically cleared to come back to work as an officer. He has done pretty good since being back, and he was rcently selected for a very prestigious assignment. He has been medically disqualified from any further military service though. His knee would proably keep him from doing a 19 mile forced march or a four mile run, but it doesn't stop him from running the 50 yards or so he needs to run to catch a fleeing subject in a foot chase as he has already proven he can still do.

I know a corrections officer that was in the Army. He had a motorcycle wreck and injured his ankle. The military treated his ankle and then medically discharged him against his will. He's fine, and he says he can do all of the thinks he could do before the injury; however, he is still disqualified from military service due to a medical condition. It doesn't stop him from being a CO though.

Combat conditions and working the streets are completely different animals.

 

[FortyFive]

Really interesting and deeply personal replies, thank you and keep them coming. PLease don't get into a shouting match, people are proud of what they do and who they are. It was good I believe to hear the background "noise" that drives us through the day. I have seen my share of stuff that happens and being young at the time it gets shrugged off. I retired from the military about 38 years ago. I believe some form of military training for all whould have improved our country by keeping people out of trouble and maybe giving them a leg up on facing life. To me it was just a job, sometimes an exciting job.
Take care guys and keep the comments coming.

 

[Bud White]

I was medically disqualified. So i cant really say couldnt get any of the branches to take me not even the jarheads
Ill add that i was kicked becuse of 3 shoulder reconstructive surgreys on my right shoulder i was fine could have done my time then but not now as my shoulder wont hold up



but with what i seen now of the kids rember im not 30 yet i wouldnt want to many of them nimrods at once or we would be worse off...

Would manadorty service do any better well it worked some for iseral(sp) but thats a different sotry there .. If we start getting attacked like they do there then we will have to do something.


At least some training for evere man and woman as they come of age would help.

But i dont think you should be able to opt out when your signing on for 4 years ya better have a ideal what your getting into if not shame on you

 

[rstickle]

I think mandatory service for ALL adults would be a big plus to true security in the US, especially in fighting the war against terrorism. For those of us who were medically unsuitable to serve, we should still be required to serve, perhaps in a different way "limited duty" vs. combat. The Israeli system is sort of a "reserve" system where their lives generally don't go on hold for years, but just serve x weeks at a time, when they aren't in a state of war.

Think of the advantage of having every adult trained on what to look for to spot a terrorist BEFORE they hit us! That is what Israel has, all soldiers learn what to look for and what to do when they spot a suspicious person. In the US, most all people are in "terminal condition white", oblivious to all around them, we're trained to let LE handle all problems and defend us as opposed to us defending our society/government/country.

I have seen stories about civilian Israelis (read that as not on active duty) taking out bombers. While I can't vouch for the accuracy of the stories, it doesn't seem likely that would or could happen in this country.

Another advantage would be that more people would have at least basic weapons training. Maybe that would cut down on the number of "anti's" that have never touched a handgun telling us how guns kill.