[Sgt Z Squad]

Dear Friends I read some threads on the Sig Double Action Kellerman and saw misconceptions on what the DAK trigger system was developed for. I recently attended a CCP course up at the Sig Academy and it was explained to me as our department is thinking about switching from a Sig P229 DA/SA to a DAK system. This is part of a memo I sent to my people as some of them had this same misconception of what the intermediate short reset option of the system was for. Here is what I learned about Sig's DAK from the course instructor:

• 
  The DAK (Double Action Kellerman) system has an intermediate reset which provides the ability of the user of being able to fire the pistol in the event the user short strokes the trigger during a critical incident. The trigger pull for the system is 6.5 lbs. in full DAO (Double Action Only) and increases to 8 lbs. if the trigger is pulled from the intermediate short reset position.

• Sig recommends and trains so that the system is to be used as DAO (Double Action Only). You will see that they only list the 6.5 lbs. trigger pull in DA on their DAK models specifications sheets. They recommend that users should be trained to fire the pistol by utilizing the full double action trigger stroke so that the trigger is a consistent 6.5 lbs.

• They have heard of some departments who do not understand what the system is suppose to be for and have been training their officers to use the short stroke after the initial full trigger pull. This is incorrect.

Hope this clears up some misconceptions about the trigger system.

 

[EW3]

I use the 6.5 lb trigger pull on my P239 DAK and let the trigger reset each time. I have no use for the 8 lb trigger pull and like consistency, so it never gets used.

I'm beginning to wonder why there is a 2nd trigger reset point at all if Sig themselves are advising people not to use it?

 

[Rexster]

I use the 6.5 lb trigger pull on my P239 DAK and let the trigger reset each time. I have no use for the 8 lb trigger pull and like consistency, so it never gets used.

I'm beginning to wonder why there is a 2nd trigger reset point at all if Sig themselves are advising people not to use it?

It seems pretty clear; the intermediate reset is for folks who might short-stroke the trigger, while stressed. I reckon most of these folks will be those transitioning from other autoloaders.

I, too, let the trigger reset fully. Being an old sixgunner, letting a long-stroke DA trigger reset itself is old habit. I still use revolvers for deadly serious purposes, along with the DAK SIGs, so trying to learn the intermediate reset is not even a consideration. I don't want to take the chance of mixing things up, and short-stroking a revolver.

 

[dukalmighty]

Good Post I always wondered how a DAK trigger worked

 

[kpw]

The only thing I like about the DAK is the short reset. When I shoot them, that's what I use. Being a long time Glock shooter, I like shorter resets. Without it, it's just another long pull DAO.

 

[nedrgr21]

I like the short reset on my Glock as well. Don't care for DAO - it's like purposefully taking an initial crappy trigger pull on a DA/SA gun and making it worse. DAK is taking that concept even further. If there is a short reset available, I want it the same as the initial pull - ie, consistent; not 2 lbs heavier. If I fired a first shot, I bet I'd want that next shot right damn now and not have to worry about transitioning to a different pull. Isn't that the same complaint with the DA/SA guns, but in reverse?

 

[kpw]

If your just trying to put holes in the X, you will notice the pound or 2 but when I got to shoot it with a bit of speed applied (fast for me anyways) at multiple plates, I didn't notice so much.

 

[JT]

but when I got to shoot it with a bit of speed applied (fast for me anyways) at multiple plates, I didn't notice so much.

same here

 

[Rexster]

I like the short reset on my Glock as well. Don't care for DAO - it's like purposefully taking an initial crappy trigger pull on a DA/SA gun and making it worse. DAK is taking that concept even further. If there is a short reset available, I want it the same as the initial pull - ie, consistent; not 2 lbs heavier. If I fired a first shot, I bet I'd want that next shot right damn now and not have to worry about transitioning to a different pull. Isn't that the same complaint with the DA/SA guns, but in reverse?

I wonder what you mean about "an initial crappy trigger pull." Do you see DA as equivalent to crappy? I am not trying to be argumentative; just trying to understand your viewpoint.

Just to be clear, I understand a good SA trigger pull, and have also fired pistols with what I consider "crappy" SA pulls. I understand good DA pulls, and have fired pistols with "crappy" DA pulls. I do not see DA as inherently crappy, just different, and there are times I like and use this difference, seeing it as an advantage. I don't particularly care for the DA-to-SA transition, all else being being equal, so I prefer autopistols to be either all-SA, or all-DA, but that does not keep me from having and using a couple of DA/SA P229s, though my "go to" P229s are DAKs.

FWIW, I have been shot at, and I have fired a defensive shot, which, BTW, was DA, from a sixgun. This is not meant for bragging purposes, nor to make me look like any kind of expert; just to help folks understand my perspective a bit. Moreover, importantly, I have pointed pistols at folks MANY times, and know what it is like for a few pounds of pressure to be the only thing keeping a weeping black hole from appearing on the skin of another human being. I have done this with DA sixguns and autoloaders, and with 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers. All of these handguns are up to the task, if one has trained with the system, and preferably, the weapon has a clean trigger pull. DA or SA can be clean, or can be crappy.

Wow, that was long. But, I can't see editing it down.

 

[usaeodtechRET8]

Additional Info Requested

Thanks for the info concerning the DAK trigger system. I am looking at the P229 (9mm) SAS Gen2 for my next weapon. Since you went to the Sig Academy, I am hoping you will be able to answer a question for me. The descriptive info (P229 SAS Gen2) at the Sig site contains the following blurb "features a new slide design,...". I was wondering whether that blurb was referring to the Sig engraving or did they do something else to the slide? Thanks for your input.

 

[kmagnuss]

3.5 year old thread. Hi.

 

[MikeyF]

Not sure about Gen2 but the SAS models have all the corners rounded off to make it easier to draw. SAS stands for Sig-anti-snag.

 

[kmagnuss]

Gen 2's have a longer extractor which you can see in the slide... btw.

 

[docdozer]

Rexter makes the best point: training with the system you use.

 

[imthduke]

I use the long pull on this one....the pull is smooth as silk

 

[TheBob_1]

Nice Gun Porn!

I use the long pull on this one....the pull is smooth as silk

There's my baby (well, I don't have the laser)! And clad in walnut grips, lying on red velvet - - nice.

I, too, use those lovely grips - - too nice to just leave in the box for resale (which is how I got mine). The only perspective I can add to this discussion is from a newbie but reasonably well-read (on the topic) pistol owner:

1) Many thanks for the original post with the detailed explanation of "DAK". I am looking at the P226 and needed to know what I would be getting in to.

2) Rexster makes excellent points and I agree with his assertion that no editing was needed.

3) As noted above, I have a P239 SAS (DAO). My only comparison regarding the feel of trigger pull on a larger caliber centerfire pistol is to my other handgun, a Springfield XD (9mm). From what I know via research and talking extensively with a gun-enthusiast / LEO (a relative), coupled with my personal opinion, the DAK simply adds a measure of "tactical insurance" in that a shooter need not worry about fully releasing the longer trigger stroke of a DAO to get off another shot in a "tight situation".

Presumably DAK is designed for real-world situations during which someone might accidentally "short-stroke" a DAO trigger. It allows someone like me (a person who does not train extensively or with just one pistol) or someone who is simply in a highly-charged "oh sh--!" situation to confidently carry a DAO pistol without the worry of possibly short-stroking the trigger when milliseconds count. It also makes sense that the short-stroke pull would require more force, as it is not intended (as I understand it) to be a primary mode of fire. Personally, I think its a brilliant feature and will look into whether I can modify the action on my 239 to DAK (no idea if this is possible).

4) From all or most accounts, an extra 1.5 pounds of force in a situation during which you actually NEED to squeeze off additional rounds, adrenaline will likely make up for any "noticeable difference". As a previous poster noted, you might notice the nuances of a firearm's action when punching holes in paper, but not so much when shooting for your life!

5) Great forum. I'm impressed with the generosity of thoughtful and knowledgeable input. Thanks to all who contributed to the conversation and filled yet another gap in my (and hopefully many others') budding knowledge of handguns.

 

[Jdl2]

Just now reading this thread but great information. Thx to all.
Jim