Sights are not as important as they used to be

2098 Views 22 Replies 16 Participants Last post by Bill MO, Apr 15, 2013

HandgunWorld

Discussion Starter · Apr 13, 2013 (Edited)

I used to make a big deal about sights on a handgun. Recently I had the opportunity to take Roger Phillips' (Suarez International) Point Shooting Progressions class. What I walked away with is the knowledge that in a reactive gunfight, it's definitely possible to make good hits at up to 11 yards if you're skilled and trained in the art of point shooting.

I know, it's a bad word and many instructors criticize the skill, some go as far as call it a fraud. There are many ways to accurately aim handgun at typical handgun distances and make good hits. By learning to drive your gun to the focal point or using the slide or corners of the slide as an index, it really works.

I think this is a must class for anyone serious about defending themselves with a handgun.

Here's what one student had to say...

"Roger is in another class. Knowledge, charisma, enthusiasm, storytelling are all an integral part of the learning environment and Roger brings that. Not only does Roger explain in detail the mechanics of the drill but situations that may dictate a technique. Along the way the integration of previous drills, grips, stances, presentations, etc., are built upon as the class moves forward. As everyone always says there is so much information provided in the 16 hours that you simply cannot take it all in or drill enough to work out the bugs. But at PSP I did learn about a great glock-esque airsoft pistol to use in the backyard and/or garage to continue working on the lessons learned at home. This class exposed many of my weaknesses, the spacial reality of a gun fight and what I need to improve. This IS a must take class for anyone on the fence. And just for a bit of levity, my front sight came loose just before noon Sunday and I ran the rest of the class with the sight removed. While it was off I shot just as well, if not better. If that is not a testament to point shooting, I am not sure what is! Also it was nice to not be the youngest one there for a change! At 30 not many of my friends take self defense training seriously and waste money on new guns or other toys. Hopefully the skills learned in PSP will challenge their beliefs."

_________________________

I'll be doing a podcast review on my experience soon and post a link to it.

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RETSUPT99

· #2 · Apr 13, 2013

I couldn't agree more...point shooting is probably how it will happen in a Wally World parking lot.:yup::hand9:

Doghandler

· #3 · Apr 13, 2013

or the threshold of the entrance to your home. :wave:

Old_Dog

· #4 · Apr 13, 2013

I learned point shooting back in 1970 using the old Applegate system as used in the OSS with some modifications and used it in Vietnam where the Army called it Quick Kill shooting. I keep trying to convince the local range paper shooters that what they practice at the range will not help much in a real gun fight and may actually prove dangerous because the time it takes most to get into a proper stance, aim and fire, is longer than it would take someone at 7 yards to reach and stab them and that is starting off with a gun in hand. I was shocked to find that most never practiced drawing and shooting, even just drawing in their homes. Heck, my cousin has been pocket carrying and did not even know he could not draw while seated until I told him to try to make my point. He bought a belt holster the next day.

I keep trying to get him to practice point shooting and also shooting faster than one shot per every few seconds. For some reason many people think they will see danger well ahead of time and be able to prepare for it.

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Doghandler

· #5 · Apr 13, 2013

Old_Dog said:
I learned point shooting back in 1970 using the old Applegate system as used in the OSS with some modifications and used it in Vietnam where the Army called it Quick Kill shooting. I keep trying to convince the local range paper shooters that what they practice at the range will not help much in a real gun fight and may actually prove dangerous because the time it takes most to get into a proper stance, aim and fire, is longer than it would take someone at 7 yards to reach and stab them and that is starting off with a gun in hand. I was shocked to find that most never practiced drawing and shooting, even just drawing in their homes. Heck, my cousin has been pocket carrying and did not even know he could not draw while seated until I told him to try to make my point. He bought a belt holster the next day. I keep trying to get him to practice point shooting and also shooting faster than one shot per every few seconds. For some reason many people think they will see danger well ahead of time and be able to prepare for it.

I gave up faith in God a long time ago. I just walk around it these days.

Bill MO

· #6 · Apr 13, 2013

PSP and Roger were my eye opening moment for what is needed and will be a gunfight. I have heard many say Roger teachings and point shooting are a fraud. But I have never heard anyone not say WOW after taking his class. My thoughts are he's opened many a eye on not knowing what one does not know.

I am proud to call him my friend.

commonground

· #7 · Apr 13, 2013

I was talking to my friend, a local LEO, recently and he said that his department had all gone to Point Shooting classes. He even went so far as to buy a gun without sights for his EDC (I can't remember what brand). Lets face it, when the SHTF and the adrenalin rush is on, sights are of little value.

PEF

· #8 · Apr 13, 2013

I realized very soon that bad guys will not wait for me to perfectly align my sights.

G-man*

· #9 · Apr 13, 2013

Point shooting defintley has its place, and should be practiced as from the draw. This is IMO a much more sound training principal than some of the other " tactics" out there.

Easy8

· #10 · Apr 13, 2013

I have carried snubs for years. I put the big dot on the front of them an have practiced point an shoot for years. Always assumed when i needed my gun it would be up close an personal. If you haven't tried the big dot you should you don't even realize you use it but it is so easy to point an shoot an still see it.

Secret Spuk

· #11 · Apr 13, 2013

Speaking strictly from experience.

None of this is new.
Point shooting as it's called here works.
Putting the front sight on the adversary without lining up with the rear sight works.
Carefully lining up both sites on the adversary works.

I refuse to get caught up in one instructor or anothers dogma. Every instructor has valuable information. But none of them can walk on water.

I'm no instructor. I have my own advice that I share.
Get professional training.
Do individual training.
Practice.
Practice some more.
Stop worrying. Your going to do fine.

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G-man*

· #12 · Apr 13, 2013

No, its not new. Years ago the Daisy BB gun company produced a BB gun sans sights complete with a US Army instructional on point shooting techniques. IIRC, it also came with safety glasses and a target disc for aerial shooting, it was produced under the name " Quick Skill".

Back in the day, I was raised on the knowledge of Lucky McDaniels book called "Quick kill", a guide to point shooting.

This is old school technique that has been regurgitated and pawned off lately as a new concept, when actually it was used by legendary gun fighters such as Bill Jordan.

Dont follow the "new". Look back to the old school pioneers who have actually developed and used this stuff in real application and didnt just talk about it.

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Todd_Ohio

· #13 · Apr 13, 2013

I agree. In a real situation, using the sights may not be possible, either because of the terrain or the speed of the conflict. It's good to have an instinctive knowledge of where the muzzle is pointing and where the shot will go.

Thanks for your podcast. I've been listening for a few months and have gone back through many of the older ones. Great stuff!

OD*

· #14 · Apr 13, 2013

glockman10mm said:
No, its not new. Years ago the Daisy BB gun company produced a BB gun sans sights complete with a US Army instructional on point shooting techniques. IIRC, it also came with safety glasses and a target disc for aerial shooting, it was produced under the name " Quick Skill".

Back in the day, I was raised on the knowledge of Lucky McDaniels book called "Quick kill", a guide to point shooting.

This is old school technique that has been regurgitated and pawned off lately as a new concept, when actually it was used by legendary gun fighters such as Bill Jordan.

Dont follow the "new". Look back to the old school pioneers who have actually developed and used this stuff in real application and didnt just talk about it.

Amen, an unqualified opinion is of less value to me than a qualified one.

jdsumner

· #15 · Apr 13, 2013 (Edited)

In my opinion,
Sights are as important as they ever were.
Point shooting is as important as it ever was.
New skills, when realized and practiced, sometimes seem more important because they are new and novel.
I'll bet you even Roger Phillips would tell you to use your sights if you have time, distance, and opportunity.
He's just very good at teaching you how to 'not use' them when time, distance, and opportunity don't allow it.

dan

Blue Thunder

· #16 · Apr 14, 2013

I had the front sight on my G-35 start rotating in an IPSC match a couple of years ago and it finally came off just before the steel targets arrived in the stage. It took a couple of targets to get things lined up in my mind and then I did the rest of the steel with around 1.5 shots per plate/popper. Never found the front FO sight, just replaced it in the safe area from the spares box. Point shooting will likely rule in most SD issues. I do practice it at the range first thing when going into the booth to shoot cold.

Matthew Temkin

· #17 · Apr 14, 2013

Point Shooting Home Study Course
THE INTEGRATED CLOSE COMBAT FORUM ? View topic - Point Shooting Home Study Course

HandgunWorld

Discussion Starter · #18 · Apr 14, 2013

Roger did say use the sights if possible. What I meant in my original post is that sights are not as important to me as they used to be. They're still useful, but I don't need to rely on them and in fact, it's dangerous to rely on them as others have stated here.

And many here are correct, point shooting is nothing new. Been done for years. I'm surprised by the people who dismiss it.

G-man*

· #19 · Apr 14, 2013

People will always dismiss things they don't understand.

It's like when I'm out plinking with a .22 rifle and people that don't know me can't believe I can throw a quarter in the air and hit it. They are always amazed, and think I'm the worlds greatest.
But they don't understand that it's not a trick shot.

And of course, many people didn't grow up like I did, with the advantage of being raised by grandparents who were both champion skeet shooters, and knew such people as Mr and Mrs Adolf Topperwein.

Point shooting was a way of life, and almost mandatory if you wanted to reach a bag limit on quick grey squirrels, or fast moving grouse flushed at the most I opportune times, usually when you were tangled up in green briars and vines.

As a kid I witnessed feats of shooting most would scoff at. And, as a younger lad I was pretty handy myself.

But the thing is, days like that are gone. People don't grow up that way anymore, have access or time to shoot, and, society doesn't place value on marksmanship skill.

If you miss, you now have 14+ more to throw out there. We have seen the increase in CCW carriers, and the decrease in skill levels of shooters.

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bmcgilvray

· #20 · Apr 14, 2013

My good friend Cres Lawson who was 50 years older than I am, knew the Topperweins (Cres' dad was good friends with Ad), visited with Ad in his gun shop and hardware store in San Antonio, Texas on many occasions, and helped with the Topperwein's show once in Meridian, Texas. A Colt Woodsman .22 pistol kept around here now was purchased new from Topperwein's in 1928.

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