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So what's the modern day application for the concealed carrier with lofty aspirations?

I've only recently started averaging 1.5 seconds from a random timer to first shot on a 8" circle at 7 yards pretty consistently...

And I KNOW I'm no master.

Sub one-second the "new" goal?

From my last trip; a damn good 5 shot string. (for me)




:hand15:


edit: not sure why that picture is so big? my apologies
From Concealment at that range I'm happy with 1.3 and .25 splits from myself in IDPA, in USPSA the split would be faster, and I do pretty good at most matches. A sub 1 second is possible, I've heard of a couple who supposedly can do it. In real life???I just want the first hit to be before the other guy can hit me, hopefully enough before that he won't hit me. But I'd rather just not test it either.
 

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My thoughts are if you are a lawman charged with facing down people, speed with your gear is pretty important.

As an average American going about his daily life, trouble is probably not going to advertise its intentions and catch you with your pants down, so speed is not as important as the ability to think on your feet.
Also, one must accept the probability that no matter how fast they are, if you are working behind the curve, you are probably going to get hit, even if you are successful.

I think strolling down Memory Lane and Nostalgia Avenue is fun and interesting....even educational; but has little to do with the realities of my daily life.
 

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As an average American going about his daily life, trouble is probably not going to advertise its intentions and catch you with your pants down, so speed is not as important as the ability to think on your feet.

I don't agree with that one........
 
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I like those "old masters" too, but they were professionals in the field of teaching, deconstrating, and theorizing on gunfighting. From what I have read, there isn't much documentation that they actually did much gunfighting.

The quotes/anecdotes I like are:
  • Claude Werner's study of actual, non-military, non-LEO DGUs: "Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear."
  • The SEAL saying, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Wyatt Earp basically said the same thing, only he was more wordy.
  • That "Glock Leg" is a thing.
I read somewhere years ago that what Earp said was, "Take your time... quickly".

I don't know about Bill Jordan but Jeff Cooper has shot men with his sidearm. I seem to recall he dispatched three of them with a 1911 in WWII.
 

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Somewhere around here I have an old book by Ed MCGiven entitled Fast and Fancy revolver shooting.
Ed McGivern was a master with his revolver. Some of the things he could do with it were truly amazing.
 
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As an average American going about his daily life, trouble is probably not going to advertise its intentions and catch you with your pants down, so speed is not as important as the ability to think on your feet.

I don't agree with that one........
Of course not, I would expect nothing less, lol
 

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Discussion Starter #30
My thoughts are if you are a lawman charged with facing down people, speed with your gear is pretty important.

As an average American going about his daily life, trouble is probably not going to advertise its intentions and catch you with your pants down, so speed is not as important as the ability to think on your feet.
Also, one must accept the probability that no matter how fast they are, if you are working behind the curve, you are probably going to get hit, even if you are successful.

I think strolling down Memory Lane and Nostalgia Avenue is fun and interesting....even educational; but has little to do with the realities of my daily life.
Some people have all the luck
 

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I can't disagree with those quotes. I really wish Cooper's Principles Of Personal Defense was still in print because the used copies are selling for scalper prices!
 

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I don't know about Bill Jordan but Jeff Cooper has shot men with his sidearm. I seem to recall he dispatched three of them with a 1911 in WWII.
There is no documentation of that that. Cooper commanded the Marine Detachment on the battleship USS Pennsylvania. He did do naval gun fire assessment after the amphibious assault landings were made. Ayoob wrote an article eluding to the fact that Cooper shot three individuals, but Cooper in his writings never claimed that he did so.
 

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Bill Jordan in "No second place winner"

On page 45 he wrote this as well.

"Fast gun handling can be a fascinating game as well as the grim difference between living and going down" Notice he doesn't use the term "quick draw" but fast "gun handling". He didn't consider he was practicing "quick draw", and the chapter about speed of presentation is titled "fast draw".

Same page

"Until he can draw and get his hit in times shading one half second, he should not presume that he has mastered the handgun"

Caveat here would be he's talking about an open carried firearm from a holster at the belt line. My copy is a 65 original printing, signed by the man himself. I'm not sure about any of the later revised editions, and relate from the original thoughts of Jordan in his first printing.

I like this one from Cooper written in April 1961--"All good combat shots are fast". In Coopers book "Principles of Personal Defense" he stated on page 26 relative speed of draw-----"Be quick, speed is your salvation" [ the word speed is italisized in trhe book as I posted it here ].

From the fsp to threat focused gurus mentioned here, all of them considered speed a defining characteristic of the enlightened pistolero.
Having a signed 1965 first printing is pretty nice. Is there a story behind your book?
 

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I appreciated the response. Still lucky in this regard.
No luck needed. The law of averages are greatly in my favor. Everybody plays them whether they want to admit it or not.
 
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Having a signed 1965 first printing is pretty nice. Is there a story behind your book?
Before he died, he was asked by a good friend to sign a certain number of books for him, for some favor he'd done previously for Jordan. It was one of two left I found this gentleman had that were signed. I'd say moderately expensive for it's time, just to add it to other old masters works. Like reading Cooper in the early 60's, very insightful when determining the course of events that led to his modern technique.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
No luck needed. The law of averages are greatly in my favor. Everybody plays them whether they want to admit it or not.
That's where you're lucky, your odds are low to very low, others live in urban areas surrounded by crime. Their law of averages is somewhat higher.
 

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That's where you're lucky, your odds are low to very low, others live in urban areas surrounded by crime. Their law of averages is somewhat higher.
Id say even in higher crime areas, the chances of a law abiding person who uses good situational awareness is pretty darn slim, far less than developing a life threatening medical condition or being in a car wreck.

And of those very small percent that are, I doubt the speed of the draw being a factor in the outcome would even be statistically relevant.
And even then, I find it very difficult to imagine a scenario where speed would make the difference once you are already in a pickle, and find it even more difficult to find a verifiable case where it was the difference in a citizen involved shooting.

But it makes for interesting conversation, although the reality check let’s some of the steam out.
 
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