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Found this video done by Rex Applegate of Bill Jordan, Ed McGivern and Herb Parsons Fast and Fancy shooters. It runs an hour and a quarter. A look back to a different time in the country. One where the shooting sports were part of the popular culture.

I think some of you might enjoy it.
 
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There is no documentation of that that. Cooper commanded the Marine Detachment on the battleship USS Pennsylvania. He did do naval gun fire assessment after the amphibious assault landings were made. Ayoob wrote an article eluding to the fact that Cooper shot three individuals, but Cooper in his writings never claimed that he did so.
You are correct...there is little documentation to support that Cooper had extensive experience in close quarter hostilities. Now, I don't say this to denigrate his concepts or teaching...just to say that he was not necessarily teaching from what he learned from first-hand experience.
 

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Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. You have to learn to be slow in a hurry. - Wyatt Earp
Six guys, from six to ten feet apart, fired thirty rounds at each other in thirty seconds with total of ten hits.
 
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I actually read every post in this thread before commenting. I found much of what was said to be credible even when there was some disagreement because there are variables in self defense situations. What is best in situation one might not be right in situation two. Still there are some basic principles that apply to the first seconds of any gunfight.

We often assert that the most important factor is shot placement, ie, accuracy. Indeed accurate wound placement can save your life faster than inaccurate wound placement. Now I will make this categorical statement. Speed is just as important as accuracy during the opening engagement.. While the ideal response is a speedy and accurate shot that is dependent upon circumstances like how, ast does the attack happen and at what distance. If someone pulls a gun on you, how much time do you have to make an accurate shot? Very Little! That is why getting a shot or two off very fast can be life saving even if they are not right on the desired wound placement. It has a psychological effect.

I have made several posts in this forum about being shot at. It truly concentrates the mind on wanting to stay alive. It will do that to most any adversary you might face. My response technique is to get two shots off at the adversary quickly just going for hits of any kind. Then within moments taking more careful aim and aiming for lethal shot placement. Those first two shots are intended to interrupt the adversary’s action even if only for a second. Then within that second to get better aim on a lethal spot.

So in the first couple seconds I will sacrifice accuracy for speed, but in the end accuracy must be a fast follow up.
 

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Before he died, he was asked by a good friend to sign a certain number of books for him, for some favor he'd done previously for Jordan. It was one of two left I found this gentleman had that were signed. I'd say moderately expensive for it's time, just to add it to other old masters works. Like reading Cooper in the early 60's, very insightful when determining the course of events that led to his modern technique.
I wrote to Mr. Jordan at his home when he lived in Shreveport LA. And had the good fortune to meet him at the 1989 S.H.O.T Show, he was a huge man. :wink:

Jordan Letter.jpg
 

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Wanna interpret that for us?
Not taxman, but... :wink:

To me it means you must learn to walk before you can run. For instance, NOBODY is fast AND good when they are first learning anything, any activity. A drywaller isn't fast at first, speed comes with experience, you start slowly and speed comes thru repetition. OMO :wink:
 

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I actually read every post in this thread before commenting. I found much of what was said to be credible even when there was some disagreement because there are variables in self defense situations. What is best in situation one might not be right in situation two. Still there are some basic principles that apply to the first seconds of any gunfight.

We often assert that the most important factor is shot placement, ie, accuracy. Indeed accurate wound placement can save your life faster than inaccurate wound placement. Now I will make this categorical statement. Speed is just as important as accuracy during the opening engagement.. While the ideal response is a speedy and accurate shot that is dependent upon circumstances like how, ast does the attack happen and at what distance. If someone pulls a gun on you, how much time do you have to make an accurate shot? Very Little! That is why getting a shot or two off very fast can be life saving even if they are not right on the desired wound placement. It has a psychological effect.

I have made several posts in this forum about being shot at. It truly concentrates the mind on wanting to stay alive. It will do that to most any adversary you might face. My response technique is to get two shots off at the adversary quickly just going for hits of any kind. Then within moments taking more careful aim and aiming for lethal shot placement. Those first two shots are intended to interrupt the adversary’s action even if only for a second. Then within that second to get better aim on a lethal spot.

So in the first couple seconds I will sacrifice accuracy for speed, but in the end accuracy must be a fast follow up.
In my opinion, you're correct in your assessment. I have written much the same thing a number of times on this website. I have never been in a gunfight so I have no experience in this area. However, logic tells me that the quicker you can get your sidearm into play and send rounds into your adversary, the better chance you have of surviving the encounter. Even initial hits in places like a thoracic side, an arm, a leg, even a hand has a good chance of disrupting a BG, if even for a second or so, but perhaps enough to where you can then deliver more controlled fire. And if you have trained well enough to be able to get off two, three, four or more shots in a very short amount of time with most all hitting somewhere in your target, that's going to hurt the BG and just might buy you the extra time to end the fray quickly.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Six guys, from six to ten feet apart, fired thirty rounds at each other in thirty seconds with total of ten hits.
History and reality runs head long into the "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. You have to learn to be slow in a hurry". Wonder if anyone asked him his definition of "accuracy". Was he talking about COM? There may be more documentation but back in that era, center punching a man was probably the goal.
 

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History and reality runs head long into the "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. You have to learn to be slow in a hurry". Wonder if anyone asked him his definition of "accuracy". Was he talking about COM? There may be more documentation but back in that era, center punching a man was probably the goal.
Wyatt probably fired the first round of the fight. His hand-on-gun pocket draw put a gut shot on Frank McLaury. Billy Clanton, who drew from the holster and fired almost simultaneously with and at Wyatt, missed. Wyatt's second round fired was an accidental discharge which went off as he wrestled free of Ike Clanton. It quite possibly was also the round that hit and grievously wounded his brother Morgan. His third round was fired at Tom McLaury's horse in an attempt to drop it so Tom couldn't use it for cover. It barely nicked the horse. One of his remaining rounds fired may or may not have found a home in the already-injured Frank McLaury.

The final hit count:

Tom McLaury's horse: nicked with one round from Wyatt
Tom McLaury: hit once by Holliday's shotgun
Frank McLaury: hit twice, once in the abdomen, and once in the head
Billy Clanton: hit three times, once in the wrist, once in the abdomen and once in the chest
Doc Holliday, grazed on the hip by one round
Virgil Earp, hit once near the heel
Morgan Earp, hit once by a round from the side which passed through both shoulder blades and nicked a vertebra.
 

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I wrote to Mr. Jordan at his home when he lived in Shreveport LA. And had the good fortune to meet him at the 1989 S.H.O.T Show, he was a huge man. :wink:
Now there is a keepsake.
 

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I actually read every post in this thread before commenting. I found much of what was said to be credible even when there was some disagreement because there are variables in self defense situations. What is best in situation one might not be right in situation two. Still there are some basic principles that apply to the first seconds of any gunfight.

We often assert that the most important factor is shot placement, ie, accuracy. Indeed accurate wound placement can save your life faster than inaccurate wound placement. Now I will make this categorical statement. Speed is just as important as accuracy during the opening engagement.. While the ideal response is a speedy and accurate shot that is dependent upon circumstances like how, ast does the attack happen and at what distance. If someone pulls a gun on you, how much time do you have to make an accurate shot? Very Little! That is why getting a shot or two off very fast can be life saving even if they are not right on the desired wound placement. It has a psychological effect.

I have made several posts in this forum about being shot at. It truly concentrates the mind on wanting to stay alive. It will do that to most any adversary you might face. My response technique is to get two shots off at the adversary quickly just going for hits of any kind. Then within moments taking more careful aim and aiming for lethal shot placement. Those first two shots are intended to interrupt the adversary’s action even if only for a second. Then within that second to get better aim on a lethal spot.

So in the first couple seconds I will sacrifice accuracy for speed, but in the end accuracy must be a fast follow up.
My first intoduction to formal Firearms Training was at my old job’s academy exactly 39 years ago this week.
One thing that I vividly recall was being taught to get the first shot off ASAP —- even if it missed.
The rationale being that even a close miss will put your enemy at a psychological disadvantage while getting you into action which will be followed by more immediate and accurate follow up shots.
The exact same advice is also preached by Applegate in KOGK as well as by other of the former past masters.
Just a few years ago a bunch of us were discussing tactics with my dad ( former WW2 Ranger) and he mentioned that shooting was an effective means of breaking the freeze effect that sometimes occurs in a fast moving surprise situation.
Good advice which, due to legal issues, is probably no longer publicly discussed.
 

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My first intoduction to formal Firearms Training was at my old job’s academy exactly 39 years ago this week.
One thing that I vividly recall was being taught to get the first shot off ASAP —- even if it missed.
The rationale being that even a close miss will put your enemy at a psychological disadvantage while getting you into action which will be followed by more immediate and accurate follow up shots.
The exact same advice is also preached by Applegate in KOGK as well as by other of the former past masters.
Just a few years ago a bunch of us were discussing tactics with my dad ( former WW2 Ranger) and he mentioned that shooting was an effective means of breaking the freeze effect that sometimes occurs in a fast moving surprise situation.
Good advice which, due to legal issues, is probably no longer publicly discussed.
The suppressive fire of my army infantry training has become the spray-and-pray slam of today.
 

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Years ago Bob Munden used to appear as a regular on a shooting TV show I loved to watch. He was comical, whimsical, and the most amazing shootist I have ever seen. The things he could do with a Single Action Army Revolver just defied reality. But he was, indeed, real.

He once was tested with his single action revolver against a 1911 semi-auto pistol to see who could fire six shots in the least amount of time. The 1911 shooter, who was no slouch but who's name escapes me, managed to fire his six shots in 0.20 seconds. Bob fired his six shots, from a single action revolver mind you, in 0.16 seconds. The results were shown on a split screen in real time and in slow motion. Incredible.
 
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