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1:10, "the target is about this big". That's twice as wide as your shoulders and at least 50% longer than your torso, I've never seen anyone shoot a target that big. In fact, the b27 full size man target isn't even close to that arm stretch. I've never seen one of these vids with a target that big being shot from 1/2 hip, please share that with us. Unless you can show us a link to such a large target being shot from 1/2 hip and pattern spreads as large as you claimed, I think you got just a little carried away with the truth on that one.

5:19, aiming is aiming Chuck, whether that's threat focused or fsp, and the debate has raged here for some time where people state threat focused isn't aiming, and you've now, IYO, agree aiming has nothing to do with where the gun is brought to or where your eyes are looking.

6:00, "what they call unsighted fire". It's not unsighted it's threat focused. And you know that's been a monkey go round on here as well, debating sighted vs unsighted fire.

7:40, "threat focused shooter will say they are building neurons", never have heard that term nor seen it written anywhere. I think you meant proprioception, and guess what? You've built them too. lol

Next time make one moving to your strong side, same speed, same 3 hits for us. Here's a 19 year old brand new shooter who made a tighter group threat focused than you did. She's got 10 shots off, 9 within the 9 ring, 6 of those in the 10 ring, 1 cutting the X ring. Her last string of shots?, 7 in the 9 ring, one in the 8 ring. Just one 8 ring shoot out of 24 rounds fired moving to her weak side.

Moving to her strong side, one ragged hole in the 10 ring, perhaps 1-2 in the 9 ring just missing the 10 ring out of 17 rounds fired. She's got about 45 minutes to play with it from both sides and we put her right on the camera for "score", and noting she's threat focused shooting there from both sides, I see NO groups as large as you claim threat focused shooters are prone to making. Of course this vid is in direct response to yours and your rather disingenuous disparaging of threat focused shooters. I seriously doubt many here will duplicate her performance of number of rounds COM while moving to either side nor her accuracy while moving.

"Here’s a video I did to demonstrate the repeatable accuracy of the flash sight picture while on the move"

Instead of arguing about what works or doesn't work, or trying to rebut your statements about threat focused shooters, lets just put this up for everyone's edification, the proof isn't in statements made like yours, it's shown in real time for everyone to decide. Proofs in the doing, not talking smack about something that's obviously as accurate and certainly as fast or faster [ based on rounds fired in 3 steps ] than your beloved front sight press.


Nice hit piece. What you've done is just confuse a whole lot of neophytes to shooting for the sake of a hit piece. So we'll use a 19 yr old neophyte to dispel the statements you made in yours about threat focused shooters.

Will wait to see those vids you've mentioned of targets twice the width of a mans shoulders and 50% longer vertically than a mans torso. Disparaging threat focused shooters and making false statements about their "groups" seems very disingenuous, at best. :redface:
 

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I was an MP in the Army and a civilian cop for decades. Unlike at war, misses and collateral damage has consequences. Your original statement made it seem as though your first shot was reckless. I am going to use the same precision for all my shots.
Collateral damage in combat often has consquences too!
 

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Discussion Starter #63
1:10, "the target is about this big". That's twice as wide as your shoulders and at least 50% longer than your torso, I've never seen anyone shoot a target that big. In fact, the b27 full size man target isn't even close to that arm stretch. I've never seen one of these vids with a target that big being shot from 1/2 hip, please share that with us. Unless you can show us a link to such a large target being shot from 1/2 hip and pattern spreads as large as you claimed, I think you got just a little carried away with the truth on that one.

5:19, aiming is aiming Chuck, whether that's threat focused or fsp, and the debate has raged here for some time where people state threat focused isn't aiming, and you've now, IYO, agree aiming has nothing to do with where the gun is brought to or where your eyes are looking.

6:00, "what they call unsighted fire". It's not unsighted it's threat focused. And you know that's been a monkey go round on here as well, debating sighted vs unsighted fire.

7:40, "threat focused shooter will say they are building neurons", never have heard that term nor seen it written anywhere. I think you meant proprioception, and guess what? You've built them too. lol

Nice hit piece. What you've done is just confuse a whole lot of neophytes to shooting for the sake of a hit piece. Will wait to see those vids you've mentioned of targets twice the width of a mans shoulders and 50% longer vertically than a mans torso. :redface:
We can agree to disagree Brownie. I think it clearly demonstrates the strengths of the flash sight picture compared to what I consider to be a very limited application in what is called threat focused shooting.

The B27 target is waaaayy bigger than what I am using. Mine is 10 inches wide by about 16 inches high, about half the size of a B27.

Yes, I did mean proprioception, and since I make the videos impromptu fashion, the term eluded me at that moment. But you are correct, proprioception is not just limited to point shooting.

I think it was demonstrated that the use of the front sight is just as fast and more accurate than not using the front sight, and that the transition from unsighted fire is limited in its usefulness in that regard to from the position of retention.

As far as the videos I mentioned, they can be viewed by a quick search on YouTube under “ threat focused shooting”, anyone is free to check:)

As far as sighted vs threat focused, I do believe that the video demonstrates one can use the front sight to an advantage for better accuracy without a loss in speed.

So, really wasn’t meant to stir ya, it was just the only video I had that demonstrated movement using the FSP.

As always, everyone has their opinions, I expressed mine, with both the video and in the past, so it’s all good.

Anyone is free to disagree with me, cause it’s a free country and everyone has their own minds about things, and I am happy when people think things out!

Oh, and I think it’s clear that your student is not “ sprinting as the title suggests:) That’s more of a boot scoot line dance routine:)

I will not get in to a roundy- round with you, everyone is free to do as they please and choose what works for them:) You have your opinion and I have mine.
 

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We need to focus more on everyone being entitled to their opinion...Sometime i find it hard to believe
we can't take one thing from a article or video without tearing apart from the get go..Even if overall
we may not agree with it as a whole.

We focus in on one part of a video or one line in a article and beat it to death instead of trying to look at
the overall message...No article or video is perfect..If we are set on finding something wrong with it we can.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
We need to focus more on everyone being entitled to their opinion...Sometime i find it hard to believe
we can't take one thing from a article or video without tearing apart from the get go..Even if overall
we may not agree with it as a whole.

We focus in on one part of a video or one line in a article and beat it to death instead of trying to look at
the overall message...No article or video is perfect..If we are set on finding something wrong with it we can.
I agree. But I also welcome the dissenting point of view, because it can become the basis for a constructive debate.

Agree, disagree, it’s all good, because it’s not about me and what I can do, it’s about the advancement of solid, proven techniques and empowering others so that they see that, they can do it also.
 

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I agree. But I also welcome the dissenting point of view, because it can become the basis for a constructive debate.

Agree, disagree, it’s all good, because it’s not about me and what I can do, it’s about the advancement of solid, proven techniques and empowering others so that they see that, they can do it also.
I am right there with ya....But when you post someones else's point of view rather video or written article.
It gets taken sometimes as you think everything in it is the gospel instead of maybe the general overall message
you are trying to convey.
 

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1:10, "the target is about this big". That's twice as wide as your shoulders and at least 50% longer than your torso, I've never seen anyone shoot a target that big. In fact, the b27 full size man target isn't even close to that arm stretch. I've never seen one of these vids with a target that big being shot from 1/2 hip, please share that with us. Unless you can show us a link to such a large target being shot from 1/2 hip and pattern spreads as large as you claimed, I think you got just a little carried away with the truth on that one.

5:19, aiming is aiming Chuck, whether that's threat focused or fsp, and the debate has raged here for some time where people state threat focused isn't aiming, and you've now, IYO, agree aiming has nothing to do with where the gun is brought to or where your eyes are looking.

6:00, "what they call unsighted fire". It's not unsighted it's threat focused. And you know that's been a monkey go round on here as well, debating sighted vs unsighted fire.

7:40, "threat focused shooter will say they are building neurons", never have heard that term nor seen it written anywhere. I think you meant proprioception, and guess what? You've built them too. lol

Next time make one moving to your strong side, same speed, same 3 hits for us. Here's a 19 year old brand new shooter who made a tighter group threat focused than you did. She's got 10 shots off, 9 within the 9 ring, 6 of those in the 10 ring, 1 cutting the X ring. Her last string of shots?, 7 in the 9 ring, one in the 8 ring. Just one 8 ring shoot out of 24 rounds fired moving to her weak side.

Moving to her strong side, one ragged hole in the 10 ring, perhaps 1-2 in the 9 ring just missing the 10 ring out of 17 rounds fired. She's got about 45 minutes to play with it from both sides and we put her right on the camera for "score", and noting she's threat focused shooting there from both sides, I see NO groups as large as you claim threat focused shooters are prone to making. Of course this vid is in direct response to yours and your rather disingenuous disparaging of threat focused shooters. I seriously doubt many here will duplicate her performance of number of rounds COM while moving to either side nor her accuracy while moving.

"Here’s a video I did to demonstrate the repeatable accuracy of the flash sight picture while on the move"

Instead of arguing about what works or doesn't work, or trying to rebut your statements about threat focused shooters, lets just put this up for everyone's edification, the proof isn't in statements made like yours, it's shown in real time for everyone to decide. Proofs in the doing, not talking smack about something that's obviously as accurate and certainly as fast or faster [ based on rounds fired in 3 steps ] than your beloved front sight press.


Nice hit piece. What you've done is just confuse a whole lot of neophytes to shooting for the sake of a hit piece. So we'll use a 19 yr old neophyte to dispel the statements you made in yours about threat focused shooters.

Will wait to see those vids you've mentioned of targets twice the width of a mans shoulders and 50% longer vertically than a mans torso. Disparaging threat focused shooters and making false statements about their "groups" seems very disingenuous, at best. :redface:
Do you have any data on how any of your students used these skills in a real life defensive encounter?
 

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Do you have any data on how any of your students used these skills in a real life defensive encounter?
Sgt. Ayman Taha of 5th group while in Affy, as related by him and later his commander at Arlington National Cemetery that I'm aware of.

Quotes from Ayman's posting on another forum on Dec. 11th, 2005

""The techniques Brownie and 7677 are using are making all the difference for me over here. Believe me, when you are clearing rooms for real, you definitely want those techniques in your toolbox. Stay sharp,
ataha"

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"I will have to second SNB here. One of Brownie's many talents is that he is able to clearly elucidate in writing what he does with the gun. Everything he writes, he showed me first hand. It is truly simple once he shows you the way, because you already know how to do it, just was never cognizant of it.

For those willing to learn, his postings are invaluable in getting you to think differently about shooting.

From the sandbox
ataha"

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I already figured out that there is no way to keep the sights up when entering a room full of people and not get shot. if the guy in the room is waiting for you bc you also have to target discriminate and he is focused right on the fatal funnel and it is absloutely true, the indexing gives you better views of the area of danger and i have tried both the low and high ready

From the sandbox
ataha"

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also related to me by a USAFPJ Lt., second year training with me in Tuscon. One of the Sgt.s on the two teams I trained the year before used his long knife to kill a terr who was attacking a fellow PJ with a machete using the skills he'd acquired. They were carrying folders the first year, second year back, they were all sporting straight knives roughly 7" in blade length.
 

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Slow is sure, and sure is fast.

I'm from the practiced slow draw end of the spectrum. I've never practiced a fast draw, but I do practice slow retrieval and always one-handed.

When bad things happen, anyone can get shaky. I don't want to drop my piece or fumble with it or shoot and miss or shoot and hit something I did not want to hit, so I choose to take the time to be careful. And...

The extra second or two gives me more time to size up a situation (maybe there are other threats, maybe there are none).

It's fine w me if my fellow forum members hereabouts do speed drills, I'm all about the slow and steady. (Oh, I'm just plain lucky that my reflexes, vision are cognition are quite good for a 70 year old. It's just my choice of how I would withdraw and present if that were ever needed for safety and survival.)
 

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How fast can one accurately shoot? That is the main question for me.
Going to depend on distance and size of target and as always skill/training/practice.
 

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I’ll start it off by saying I’m not really sure which is more important to me.

I carry my Glocks AIWB, but my 1911 is strong side iwb or owb. Drawing either requires defeating the cover garment, and I am consistently quicker on the draw to shot on target with Glocks from AIWB than I am the 1911 from strong side draw.

The difference to me is negligible, 1.38 vs 1.86 on the time.

I still make the choice to carry the 1911 at times because A) I like it, love shooting it, and B) it is more accurate for both close CQB style flash sight picture, and longer distance slower fire. ( anything 5 yards or closer is done one handed when practicing SD style drills)

So for me, the two balance out, making them both top choices for me.

Is this a consideration for any of any of you in your choices, and what do you place the most value on and why?
One thing to look at, the weight between the two. Plus amount of rounds available.

1st/ Colt 45. 48 ozs. 18 ozs heavier than the Glock 19. Fully loaded 8 or 9 rounds.

2nd/ Glock 19. 30 ozs. Fully loaded 16 rounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
One thing to look at, the weight between the two. Plus amount of rounds available.

1st/ Colt 45. 48 ozs. 18 ozs heavier than the Glock 19. Fully loaded 8 or 9 rounds.

2nd/ Glock 19. 30 ozs. Fully loaded 16 rounds.
I carry a G26 with flush magazine.

Capacity vs caliber trade off is negligible to me. But I do believe the time I take to unsafe the 1911 makes up a little difference, and the weight may make a little difference as you suggested also.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Slow is sure, and sure is fast.

I'm from the practiced slow draw end of the spectrum. I've never practiced a fast draw, but I do practice slow retrieval and always one-handed.

When bad things happen, anyone can get shaky. I don't want to drop my piece or fumble with it or shoot and miss or shoot and hit something I did not want to hit, so I choose to take the time to be careful. And...

The extra second or two gives me more time to size up a situation (maybe there are other threats, maybe there are none).

It's fine w me if my fellow forum members hereabouts do speed drills, I'm all about the slow and steady. (Oh, I'm just plain lucky that my reflexes, vision are cognition are quite good for a 70 year old. It's just my choice of how I would withdraw and present if that were ever needed for safety and survival.)
Nothing wrong with what you are doing. If it works and you are comfortable with it, that’s all that matters. Speed within itself is not the end all solution.
 
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Interesting topic. I have used a shot timer pretty extensively and yet small fractions of time don't mean as much as the quality of my access. What I mean by that is how accessible is your firearm while seated, driving, wearing a tool belt, Heavy winter clothing, gloves,etc. you get the point. If I have a "fast" time with my equipment on the square range what does that really tell me about any number of real life defensive scenarios? Can I draw and fire while defending a punch or hand held weapon? Can I draw and get decent accuracy with my non-dominant hand? Things like that mean more to me than pure speed so I guess I would lean toward putting accuracy No. 1 if I had to choose.
However, first person hit looses a significant advantage most often so putting bullets quickly in the "nipples to nose" triangle is good enough for accuracy if your still first to shoot. I don't need every shot in the "X" ring IMHO.
I have carried a lot of different guns in a lot of different ways and still to this day my 642 carried AIWB checks more boxes for me than anything else carried and yes I do carry different guns.
Its kind of like those little 8 ounce fire extinguishers we carry on a belt when falling trees. If your saw starts a fire how fast and how accurate you are with your response is all you have to work with because there is no extended or long distance attack on a fire with 8 ounces. Make it quick and make it count or its going to end up being handled by somebody else. Sure I could haul around a 5 pound extinguisher on a backpack but, the fatigue and clumsiness that comes with it would slow me to the point of making that extra volume irrelevant.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
Interesting topic. I have used a shot timer pretty extensively and yet small fractions of time don't mean as much as the quality of my access. What I mean by that is how accessible is your firearm while seated, driving, wearing a tool belt, Heavy winter clothing, gloves,etc. you get the point. If I have a "fast" time with my equipment on the square range what does that really tell me about any number of real life defensive scenarios? Can I draw and fire while defending a punch or hand held weapon? Can I draw and get decent accuracy with my non-dominant hand? Things like that mean more to me than pure speed so I guess I would lean toward putting accuracy No. 1 if I had to choose.
However, first person hit looses a significant advantage most often so putting bullets quickly in the "nipples to nose" triangle is good enough for accuracy if your still first to shoot. I don't need every shot in the "X" ring IMHO.
I have carried a lot of different guns in a lot of different ways and still to this day my 642 carried AIWB checks more boxes for me than anything else carried and yes I do carry different guns.
Its kind of like those little 8 ounce fire extinguishers we carry on a belt when falling trees. If your saw starts a fire how fast and how accurate you are with your response is all you have to work with because there is no extended or long distance attack on a fire with 8 ounces. Make it quick and make it count or its going to end up being handled by somebody else. Sure I could haul around a 5 pound extinguisher on a backpack but, the fatigue and clumsiness that comes with it would slow me to the point of making that extra volume irrelevant.

A thousand likes for this one, and later posters who said similar. The timer is entertaining and tells you what it tells you on the range, but matters only as much as the situation allows.

Totally agree; accessibility is much more important than speed of draw.

Be able to access if-be able to hit well with it.

Which is one of the reasons the 1911 is , and will continue to be carried when I can do it.
 
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