[walrusjax]

Today, I bought a bulk pack of 9mm Speer 124 gr +P HPs. They were 250 rounds for $120, so I picked one up. When I got home, I noticed that it doesn't say Gold Dot on the box and it does say "Not for LE Use" and "Practice Ammunition." What exactly does that mean? I did ask before I bought and these are NOT reloads, they are factory new.

Should I literally use them only for practice or is that just marketing and they'll be fine for Personal Defense as well? I could use them to run 100 rounds through my new M&P9c, as a test, and then go buy a box of 20 for $20, but that seems stupid unless there is a real reason that these are for practice.

 

[NC Bullseye]

They were rejected from the assembly line for some reason. Could be cosmetic or could be functional (low powder charge, primer set, etc). It'd be wisest to use for range as noted.

Will they have problems? Probably not. Worth betting your life to save a few bucks on SD ammo? Not for me.

 

[gottabkiddin]

Will they have problems? Probably not. Worth betting your life to save a few bucks on SD ammo? Not for me.

:hand10: "Big" 10/4 on that one there.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Guys, this is a Law Enforcement contract overrun. Federal HST, Winchester Ranger Bonded, and now Speer Gold Dot have all found their way to retail channels in this manner. It says not for LE use because it's it's supposed to be for the contract order and since the contract buyer is not taking them it is only to be used in retail channels and not used in any other contract or by any other agency. Each contract has a specific requirement they ask for in the order. The manufacturer would like to not risk an LEO using this round and having it be outside the department requirements and the blame going to the manufacturer for such a round being outside the department requirements for a duty load. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The "Not for LE use" sticker is a save your ass liability sticker, so that if an LEO uses the round in a shoot, and after investigation it is deemed the ammo falls outside the very specific department requirements for velocity, they won't be liable for any damages because it was marked to not be used in that capacity.

Same deal as the following.

 

[gottabkiddin]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The "Not for LE use" sticker is a save your ass liability sticker, so that if an LEO uses the round in a shoot, and after investigation it is deemed the ammo falls outside the very specific department requirements for velocity, they won't be liable for any damages because it was marked to not be used in that capacity.

Thanks for the information. I never would have thought of that, but it makes perfect sense to me now that you mention it. :yup:

 

[cmdrdredd]

Thanks for the information. I never would have thought of that, but it makes perfect sense to me now that you mention it. :yup:

This information comes direct from a local dealer who had obtained some HST this way. I asked him about it and he was told from the distributor not to sell it to LEOs because the departments issue their ammo, and the ammo issued meets a specific set of requirements that might not match up with this lot.

 

[stoprilshoot]

if the man wants to use ammo that is out of spec for self defense i cant stop it.

i warn against doing so.

This information comes direct from a local dealer who had obtained some HST this way. I asked him about it and he was told from the distributor not to sell it to LEOs because the departments issue their ammo, and the ammo issued meets a specific set of requirements that might not match up with this lot.

this makes no sence. its likely most ammo that is sold over the counter to LEO's does not meet their issued ammo spec. sounds more like typical gun store BS to me.


:hand1:

 

[cmdrdredd]

if the man wants to use ammo that is out of spec for self defense i cant stop it.

i warn against doing so.







this makes no sence. its likely most ammo that is sold over the counter to LEO's does not meet their issued ammo spec. sounds more like typical gun store BS to me.


:hand1:

No it's true. The fact is THIS. When a department orders ammo they have a specific requirement for everything including velocity. I have heard of lots being rejected for being 4fps over the variance allowed. That is why they will not sell the overruns to LEOs and agencies. Their requirements may not be met. LEOs do not go to the store and buy ammo for duty carry. It is issued. The only ammo bought from a store that an LEO might use is off duty. Duty rounds, at least in all departments in my area that I know of are strictly issued by the department and the officers are responsible for everything. One guy told me he happened to lose 1 round during the day because he has to clear his weapon many times and heard an ear full about it. I talk to the officers in my area weekly and none of them buy duty ammo at the store. Everything they need is issued when it comes to ammunition. Personal use weapons, they must provide their own ammo. I know at least the sheriff's department must carry a specific weapon off duty if the officer is going to carry off duty at all unless he or she has a CCW. Then they may use whatever they wish. It's all about liability in this "I'm going to sue you" attitude that runs rampant in this country.

It's not "out of spec" as you say. It's an overrun. If it's an order that is rejected it is not crap. It's simply not within the limits of what the department/agency will accept. That has nothing to do with the quality of the ammo and ability of the bullet to expand properly and penetrate properly etc. This is strictly to be used by a department or agency as practice only so that it never comes up in court as a point of vulnerability to the officers or the department/agency if it is used in a shooting and found to be outside the variance allowed.

 

[automatic slim]

Just to play it safe, I would test fire a few.

 

[walrusjax]

Thank you all for such great information. The reason that I bought this bulk pack is because I want to go fire 100 rounds at the range to make sure I get no jams, etc. I have heard from numerous sources that you should never carry an ammo that you haven't fired at least 100 rounds, so even if it is just for practice, it serves my purpose and gives me plenty more to occasionally shoot to make sure I stay acquainted with it.

Also, before I posted here, I sent an e-mail to Speer with the lot and container number of my box of ammo and asked them for an explanation. Once I hear back, I will post their response so that all can benefit from that info.

 

[cmdrdredd]

If they reply back anyhow. I look forward to whatever they might say.

 

[kpw]

Keep us up to date please. I've shot thousands of rounds of this stuff without issue. My dealer told me it was how they sell off over-runs as well.

 

[walrusjax]

OK, no update from Speer yet (not surprising since it's still the weekend), but I did go fire 100 rounds of it today and it worked flawlessly.

 

[MitchellCT]

The idea that a shooting's kosher/notkosher status being determined on the ammo being in spec or slightly over spec is laughable.

A police use of force incident is judged under numerous constitutional standards to determine if the police have violated someone's rights in their use of deadly force, and if such use of force is objectively and subjectively reasonable.

The spec of the ammo in use at any given time is a negligable issue, that may be...MAY be in issue if the use of force was justified; however, the ammunition did not function as intended and resulted in a shoot through injuring a bystander...

And even in that case, liability wouldn't be laid at the police's feet, but the ammo's manufacturer.

If your ammo is not fit for LE use, it is not fit for YOUR defensive use either.

 

[digitalexplr]

I've got several boxes of Federal HST's. The boxes are all marked, "For Law Enforcement Use Only". HST's are all marked this way but there is no law saying they cannot be sold to the general public.

If an agency cancels an order or doesn't take delivery of all they ordered the distributor is free to sell them to whomever they desire.
There is nothing out of specs involved.

 

[cmdrdredd]

The idea that a shooting's kosher/notkosher status being determined on the ammo being in spec or slightly over spec is laughable.

A police use of force incident is judged under numerous constitutional standards to determine if the police have violated someone's rights in their use of deadly force, and if such use of force is objectively and subjectively reasonable.

The spec of the ammo in use at any given time is a negligable issue, that may be...MAY be in issue if the use of force was justified; however, the ammunition did not function as intended and resulted in a shoot through injuring a bystander...

And even in that case, liability wouldn't be laid at the police's feet, but the ammo's manufacturer.

If your ammo is not fit for LE use, it is not fit for YOUR defensive use either.

Believe what you want. It's left overs from an order, they don't want it to be sold to LEO and it goes to consumer channels. End of story.

 

[stoprilshoot]

Believe what you want. It's left overs from an order, they don't want it to be sold to LEO and it goes to consumer channels. End of story.

your the one who is believing what you want. your not listening to what federal and speer have to say, only what the man trying to sell you the ammo is saying.


end of story? if you use it and it fails or somebody believes the FUD you are spreading and it fails on them...


just sayin'

:urlaub2:

 

[Majorlk]

The idea that a shooting's kosher/notkosher status being determined on the ammo being in spec or slightly over spec is laughable.

A police use of force incident is judged under numerous constitutional standards to determine if the police have violated someone's rights in their use of deadly force, and if such use of force is objectively and subjectively reasonable.

The spec of the ammo in use at any given time is a negligable issue, that may be...MAY be in issue if the use of force was justified; however, the ammunition did not function as intended and resulted in a shoot through injuring a bystander...

And even in that case, liability wouldn't be laid at the police's feet, but the ammo's manufacturer.

If your ammo is not fit for LE use, it is not fit for YOUR defensive use either.

Absolutely!!!!

There's NO ammunition manufacturer that's going to distribute ammunition that they know to be unsafe FOR ANY REASON. The liability issues are simply too great. They'll trash an entire production run before they'll knowingly let any of it out of the factory. If it's marked Not For LE Use, there's some reason other than safety.

The amount of complete BS that gets posted on the Internet and passed around in gun stores is pathetic.

 

[Majorlk]

If your ammo is not fit for LE use, it is not fit for YOUR defensive use either.

Believe what you want. It's left overs from an order, they don't want it to be sold to LEO and it goes to consumer channels. End of story.

I think you are misreading MitchellCT's statement. He's absolutely correct and if I read his post correctly, he's poking holes in the idea that it's somehow unsafe for LE but ok for civilians.

Am I correct, Mitchell?

And I agree with your assessment of the origin of the ammo in question, cmdrdredd. I've bought such ammo more than once. In fact, just this past month.

 

[P J 234]

There was some Speer Gold Dot recall ammo floating around for a while being sold like this. I don't recall the reason for the recall, or if one was even given, but a lot of it was sold in bulk packs as not for LE use. I think you can check with Speer or perhaps even Google for the lot numbers of recalled ammo.