That is a pickle to be in, exit the car and make one pay for his deed as soon as possible providing no LEO badges are being flashed etc. My understanding is you don't want to fight from within the car. Not much time for decision making. Depending on how your blocked in you could also ram their vehicle a number of times if required. Lets see what others say about this.
Tactical teaser.
It's late evening - your wife asks you to drop down to the ''8 till late'' half a mile away, to pick up a jug of milk and a loaf of bread.
You arrive, park in small empty lot, go in and get the goods. Brief chat with clerk who you know - and five minutes later you return to car. Parking lot still appears empty as you scan, and no traffic visible.
As you are about to start up, a car drives in real quick and stops abruptly, blocking your exit about six feet away - you have no way to reverse into any useable clear space. Two guys immediately get out and each carries a gun hanging lose at side, each one heading for opposite sides of your car.
Total time from the appearance of car to the guys approaching - max 4 seconds.
Your action - based on no guns actually pointing and no shots yet fired? Remember, you are in your car, door shut. You are of course carrying.
Go!!
You arrive, park in small empty lot, go in and get the goods. Brief chat with clerk who you know - and five minutes later you return to car. Parking lot still appears empty as you scan, and no traffic visible.
As you are about to start up, a car drives in real quick and stops abruptly, blocking your exit about six feet away - you have no way to reverse into any useable clear space. Two guys immediately get out and each carries a gun hanging lose at side, each one heading for opposite sides of your car.
Total time from the appearance of car to the guys approaching - max 4 seconds.
Your action - based on no guns actually pointing and no shots yet fired? Remember, you are in your car, door shut. You are of course carrying.
Go!!
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Would have to agree, If it could be established (extremely fast) that they are not LEO, than I would start reversing, ramming forwards backwards every which way, all the while watching the "bad things" and engaging if necessary. This is the reason that whenever possible I park a little further out where parking lots are usually less full so I can't get blocked in, also prevents people from hiding around other cars to have a jump on you. Oh, and it helps keep your ride from getting dinged. :biggrin:
Forgot that part too. Guess I would see if I had a second to get out and create distance, and find cover. Other than that If the drivers side one got up to me before I could make a dash, I would kick the door open on him as hard as I could to try to knock him off balance and then determine my most imminent threat and start engaging when appropriate. This is a good one.
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I think a safe assumption here they are not - due to mode of gun carry - lose at side as against (I'd expect) low ready from LE.
Re ramming - remember at this point the car is not yet engine running - our guy has not yet gotten to that. Plus any reversing will only smash his back end.
Good point re where and how we park - I agree on the comment cmb. Unfortunately our guy forgot that sound decision this time!!
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KC - true, 6 feet is quite a lot but - with a car stopped right across the bows of another, I'd doubt anything has enough steering lock to make one forward pass and reliably clear the other.
During such an attempt you would draw right alongside the BG on driver's side too.
Sorry it comes over a poorly conceived! Perhaps a diagram would help.
During such an attempt you would draw right alongside the BG on driver's side too.
Sorry it comes over a poorly conceived! Perhaps a diagram would help.
Rock & Roll
Distance is your friend.
If these "persons" are LEO or BGs - I was not invited to the party- makes no nevermind.
If persons are on driver's side - I'm gonna do the 'shotgun roll' - reach over, pop the passenger side door open and roll myself out and away with vehicle offering cover/ concealement - something/ anything.
If Person's are on passenger side, I'm out the driver's door.
Ramming is an option.
I do NOT know if the person's are BGs. I do not know if the person's are LEO and someone in the store called the LEO. I do not know if the person that rang up my bread and milk was the BG and the store attendent(s) is/are in back, or if somehow attendent(s) hit a silent alarm, or was able to call for help.
I can make a real good observer and witness since I don't get paid to get shot at.
I always recall the question : "If you happened upon a alley and shots fired would you get involved?".
Remember the guy(s) with the gun(s) just might be a UC LEO...not a good idea to shoot a LEO
Since I have assisted with some UC LEO...
I did not venture down that dark alley as there may have been three or four dudes with a baseball bat - Richard Pryor
[yes I cleaned the quote up a bit]
Distance is your friend.
Oh...I keep a box of powdered milk in the cupboard for emergencies. I make scratch biscuits and use water not milk . I drink my coffee black and I ...well momma can learn to make scratch biscuits, drink her coffee black..." what about smokes?"
I gots a emergency pack in the truck, and one in my backpack.
To avoid trouble - don't be where trouble is.
Yeah I know - I think outside of the box a lot . :biggrin:
Distance is your friend.
If these "persons" are LEO or BGs - I was not invited to the party- makes no nevermind.
If persons are on driver's side - I'm gonna do the 'shotgun roll' - reach over, pop the passenger side door open and roll myself out and away with vehicle offering cover/ concealement - something/ anything.
If Person's are on passenger side, I'm out the driver's door.
Ramming is an option.
I do NOT know if the person's are BGs. I do not know if the person's are LEO and someone in the store called the LEO. I do not know if the person that rang up my bread and milk was the BG and the store attendent(s) is/are in back, or if somehow attendent(s) hit a silent alarm, or was able to call for help.
I can make a real good observer and witness since I don't get paid to get shot at.
I always recall the question : "If you happened upon a alley and shots fired would you get involved?".
Remember the guy(s) with the gun(s) just might be a UC LEO...not a good idea to shoot a LEO
Since I have assisted with some UC LEO...
I did not venture down that dark alley as there may have been three or four dudes with a baseball bat - Richard Pryor
[yes I cleaned the quote up a bit]
Distance is your friend.
Oh...I keep a box of powdered milk in the cupboard for emergencies. I make scratch biscuits and use water not milk . I drink my coffee black and I ...well momma can learn to make scratch biscuits, drink her coffee black..." what about smokes?"
I gots a emergency pack in the truck, and one in my backpack.
To avoid trouble - don't be where trouble is.
Yeah I know - I think outside of the box a lot . :biggrin:
If I was a high speed low drag super cool operator I would immediately get out of my non-running vehicle and shoot the guy closest to me in the head, at under six feet I shouldn't miss.
Depending on the other guy's reaction I would either take cover behind my car or his car while I was laying down cover fire. How it goes from there is anyones guess.
NO LIGHTS + NO SIRENS + NO BADGES + GUNS DRAWN + MY MEANS OF ESCAPE CUT OFF = IT'S OBVIOUS!
Depending on the other guy's reaction I would either take cover behind my car or his car while I was laying down cover fire. How it goes from there is anyones guess.
NO LIGHTS + NO SIRENS + NO BADGES + GUNS DRAWN + MY MEANS OF ESCAPE CUT OFF = IT'S OBVIOUS!
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Hmm...Since they are coming up either side of my car, they are already within 10' of me before I could determine if there is a problem. Since they are really interested in their friend who is at the payphone on the side of the building in front of my car, I'm going to let them conduct their business and leave...
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Where did that bit come from Tom?? :smile:
Steve - I did mention - the clerk is a friend
- well, someone known, so - not BG category. For sure, this dude would have been better advised to not be shopping at this time of day with few folks around.
Q-Ball - I think you have about the only option - which might in fact mean go down fighting. Just possibly the guy could open door and draw and engage BG #1 real quick, probably keeping low, if not actually going to ground. The biggest single factor seems to be time - lack of it!!
If we make an assumption that the good guy was at least condition yellow, then just perhaps he might get his window down as car appears - possibly even draw too as a precaution - this would increase initial options thru time saving and greater opportunity to lean out of window for initial engagement.
The only reason I even made this post was, following a description of something very similar from a buddy, outside of Cincinnati IIRC - except the guys who appeared did not cut off a means of escape and were not armed. They were in fact also going shopping but were briefly both approaching his car. It made him and me consider how bad things could be in the scenario I tried to paint.
Chris you are correct, I missed it.
Still I would prefer distance and being mobile.
The less attention I attract to myself [ exiting my vehicle] the more flexible I am in observing, seeking cover, calling the Police [to see if the Police were called / report suspicious activity request officers respond...] the better I can do most anything.
I too have been on both sides of this "fence". I have called and had folks observe and call the police.
Example : I hate cats. If I told a customer I took my cat to the vet - red flag. If a customer suspected something and asked me "how is the new kitten?" - "Fine = eveything okay" , " Had to take to vet" = trouble/ seek help.
I am a bit cautious about 911 and prefer to NOT use 911. Somebody driving by once noticed a safe door being loaded onto a wrecker. We had the Police in plain clothes ( off duty) to assist us with gettng this safe door repaired and help me baby sit the store while the door was fixed.
Marked cars arrived, gun drawn on me and the officers ' Ya'll being robbed or what?"
County got the 911 call and responded. Sad part is the city and state LEO assisting had called 911 and informed them and the alarm company. 911 never even made a note of this.
Distance , mobile and call the LEO direct. I don't do 911.
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To preface my statement here, I am not trying to say I am extraordinarily skilled or alert. I will say however due to some previous experiences I am a bit more anal retentive about a few things that could make a life or death difference in a case like this.
As I have said on more than one occasion, I drive cheap, large sturdy vehicles for a reason. Since the BG's are most likely not after my car, and are acting in a decidedly non LEO fashion I will have to assume I am in danger, whether I am the direct target or just an unwanted witness to what they are about to do makes no difference. Anyone who purposely cuts of my escape and has a gun is a BG until proven otherwise.
Now the anal retentive part.
Since I always lock my vehicles on exit my keys are in my hands when from unlocking it when I enter it. I developed the habit a long time ago of using the key to unlock the door, opening it, then locking it (one handed)with the key before pulling it out. (side note, this annoys the heck out of my wife. If I get out of the car you can bet it is locked, if I walk in the house for 3 seconds to grab something I forgot, the door is locked behind me both in and out. It has become completely unconscious. She can be 10ft behind me coming in the house, and find the door locked. LOL If you develop this habit I would recommend carrying an extra house and car key in your wallet, and keep the local florist on speed dial. LOL) I almost always secure any cargo bigger than a 1liter coke bottle in the rear floorboard or cargo area (had a bad experience with flying debris in a wreck one time) my hands are most likely free. This means that the door is locked before it is closed and the truck is running within seconds. So I either started it before the BG's arrived, or before they managed to reach the side windows. Ramming is an option. However depending on their vehicle this may or may not be a very good one. Old Suburban with 6ft start, VS Honda civic= favorable odds, Suburban with 6ft start VS front half of a 74 Coupe Deville = less than certain outcome Due to my choice of vehicles my turning radius is not very tight which is also a consideration. Ideally if you are going to ram something, try to hit it in the rear, as that is the usually the lightest part, and most easily shoved out of the way. If you can knock down or run over a BG in the process, so much the better. If all else fails, I might try reclining the seat all the way and try firing from behind the window tint.(hearing loss is better than death) It isn't much but you might get one of them by surprise. Unless they are specifically gunning for you, they probably won't expect you to be armed, secondly they most likely won't expect you to fire from low in the rear window. If you are very lucky, they could even end up shooting at each other through the truck in the confusion.
Needless to say this would be an even scarier scenario than what is usually posted on here.
As I have said on more than one occasion, I drive cheap, large sturdy vehicles for a reason. Since the BG's are most likely not after my car, and are acting in a decidedly non LEO fashion I will have to assume I am in danger, whether I am the direct target or just an unwanted witness to what they are about to do makes no difference. Anyone who purposely cuts of my escape and has a gun is a BG until proven otherwise.
Now the anal retentive part.
Since I always lock my vehicles on exit my keys are in my hands when from unlocking it when I enter it. I developed the habit a long time ago of using the key to unlock the door, opening it, then locking it (one handed)with the key before pulling it out. (side note, this annoys the heck out of my wife. If I get out of the car you can bet it is locked, if I walk in the house for 3 seconds to grab something I forgot, the door is locked behind me both in and out. It has become completely unconscious. She can be 10ft behind me coming in the house, and find the door locked. LOL If you develop this habit I would recommend carrying an extra house and car key in your wallet, and keep the local florist on speed dial. LOL) I almost always secure any cargo bigger than a 1liter coke bottle in the rear floorboard or cargo area (had a bad experience with flying debris in a wreck one time) my hands are most likely free. This means that the door is locked before it is closed and the truck is running within seconds. So I either started it before the BG's arrived, or before they managed to reach the side windows. Ramming is an option. However depending on their vehicle this may or may not be a very good one. Old Suburban with 6ft start, VS Honda civic= favorable odds, Suburban with 6ft start VS front half of a 74 Coupe Deville = less than certain outcome Due to my choice of vehicles my turning radius is not very tight which is also a consideration. Ideally if you are going to ram something, try to hit it in the rear, as that is the usually the lightest part, and most easily shoved out of the way. If you can knock down or run over a BG in the process, so much the better. If all else fails, I might try reclining the seat all the way and try firing from behind the window tint.(hearing loss is better than death) It isn't much but you might get one of them by surprise. Unless they are specifically gunning for you, they probably won't expect you to be armed, secondly they most likely won't expect you to fire from low in the rear window. If you are very lucky, they could even end up shooting at each other through the truck in the confusion.
Needless to say this would be an even scarier scenario than what is usually posted on here.
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LOL, Nope!
My wife read my post, and said that I understated how bad I really am. I am really not even conscious of it anymore until she tries to bring in a bag of groceries behind me and starts fussing because the door is locked. LOL
My wife read my post, and said that I understated how bad I really am. I am really not even conscious of it anymore until she tries to bring in a bag of groceries behind me and starts fussing because the door is locked. LOL
Given your restrictions:
And assume BG1 and BG2 are equally
1. Draw. Honk horn at same time if I can
2. If they are still advancing, put rounds on BG1 (drver side) thru windshield
This wil:
a) hopefully make them seek cover or at the least mess up there OODA loop
b) frost the glass of the windshield, making me harder to see
c) if i'm lukcy stop BG1
3. Exit driver side, keeping foot on door while I bail. Engage BG1 again if needed.
4.Try to put engine block between me and BG2.
5.Engage BG as needed.
6. Comms drill
And assume BG1 and BG2 are equally
1. Draw. Honk horn at same time if I can
2. If they are still advancing, put rounds on BG1 (drver side) thru windshield
This wil:
a) hopefully make them seek cover or at the least mess up there OODA loop
b) frost the glass of the windshield, making me harder to see
c) if i'm lukcy stop BG1
3. Exit driver side, keeping foot on door while I bail. Engage BG1 again if needed.
4.Try to put engine block between me and BG2.
5.Engage BG as needed.
6. Comms drill
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