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Discussion Starter #1
I've been thinking about doing this for my website for a while, but will have to wait until Spring to get footage for the clips.

Basically I want to film how to do common procedures that would be useful in a defensive shooting situation in the proper "tactical" method and then show a clip of actual competitors at the local IDPA / IPSC matches and how they do it.

My first idea was to show what "slicing the pie" should look like and what is being done in competitions. I made the following clip at home while bored one night using my airsoft gun, but will get some live footage this Spring by using a remote camera I have at the next IDPA and IPSC matches I go to.

In competition we are running against the clock and KNOW where the BG's are so we tend to run around corners and expose ourselves because the targets can't shoot back and we KNOW where they are anyway. Since "blind" stages are so rare, we are constantly reinforcing this bad behavior.

In the clip I have here, the last two shootings are after I have ran and made a mag change from the other side of the house. After reviewing the first attempt, I even tried to limit the exposure more, but as you can see it's way too easy to go past the point of "safety" unless you approach and slice slowly.

I'd be interested to hear any pet peeve issues that competition trains us for failure if you have them. It will give me some ideas of which to film next. I have a feeling that when competitors at the matches see how exposed they really are during a course of fire, it will be an eye opener. For the IDPA guys at least. The IPSC guys could care less about cover. LOL


Tactical Cornering .mov (Quicktime required) 1.3MB


PS. If you can guess the composer in the background you get extra points. :)
 

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Safety and the unexpected can go hand in hand...

oregonshooter said:
In competition we are running against the clock and KNOW where the BG's are so we tend to run around corners and expose ourselves because the targets can't shoot back and we KNOW where they are anyway. Since "blind" stages are so rare, we are constantly reinforcing this bad behavior.
Well it's usually a safety issue. My club often runs "blind" stages and we usually run night shoots requiring a hand held flashlight (no mounted lights) and you can't borrow somebody elses light! Also, on the night shoots, the shooter rearranges the targets and no shoots for the next person and then exits to an area where there is no consorting with those who've not yet run the course.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
But that's not by IDPA rules right? Do they do blind stages at the big matches for time?

Let me rephrase that.

We do a lot of things in our IDPA club that are not by the rules, but the things I want to point out are tactical errors that the rules MAKE you do.

For instance, having to leave cover to secure a mag that has dropped to the ground before a "tactical reload" is considered complete. We had a stage last month that required me to do a tactical reload upon reaching a Bianchi Wall even though I ran dry on the move and shoot targets between box A and box B (the wall).

Another shooter on the same stage fumbled his reload and the mag fell out in front of the wall. He had to go out from cover to secure that mag instead of using another off his belt because it would be a procedural for not securing the mag during a tactical reload.

That's the kind of stuff I want to illustrate on video. Bad training habits developed by clock or rules that are too stringent.

PS. Not trying to get an IDPA bashing thread going here, just clarifying my intent.

Can anyone think of similar rules/examples of competition affecting sound tactics?
 

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There are I think quite a number of discrepancies between ''real'' and compo - tho the speed aspect of compo is in itself I think a useful training aid. beyond that tho there is scope for much ''bad habit'' induction, if we let some things become too memoried.

Biggest single thing I think of is - the total difference between use of cover when taking incoming as against none at all! Then too the way we change mags whereby in IDPA we may be more concerned about avoiding proceedurals than actuall ''under fire'' necessities.

One of the most challenging sections I have shot is ''the house'' - no prior knowledge of where the shoot and no-shoots are - even layout not fully known. These make for extreme difficulty even with no return fire and do prove useful IMO - maybe more than ''normal'' stages. Closer maybe to ''thinking on your feet''.

We do a night shoot each year - pretty much like Ex described - this year we even allowed laser grips - a very valuable excercize if only because it required a different approach.

I daresay the only realistic tactical training can come from simmunition use - as IIRC Tangle has experienced. That is simply because things are goin' to be so different with incoming fire. Whole new ballgame and one where mistakes quickly show up - maybe painfully!
 

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IDPA and USPSA ARE GAMES did I say IDPA AND USPSA ARE GAMES it is not Tactics.
If you want Tactics get Tactical Training or Force on Force.
pat
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Pat,

Yes they are games. No I have no illusion that they are tactical training.

Now here is the meat of the question...

1. Who here believes they will fight like they train?

2. Who here believes that the mind does not know the difference between "mental rehersal" and actual?

3. Who here believes that people have died with empty brass in their pockets because they policed it on the range everytime they shot?

4. Who here believes that they can practice all the gun manipulation and speed increasing drills that shooting sports offer WITHOUT participating in shooting sports?

5. Who here STILL believes that competition is just a game that does not present a REAL threat to your chances of survival in a gun fight EVEN though we know it's a game?

And the question that's being asked here...

How many people think about the consequences of ingraining sport shooting habits into their "muscle memory?"
Now having said that, I want to ask you something Pat. Do you sport shoot?
 

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I consider the biggest diffrence between shooting sports and tactical training to be the hardware. Most action shooting use specialized guns , weaker loads and optics. I do not want to ingrain these competition habits into my muscle memory, therefore do not participate.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Rocky,
I shoot with my carry rig so the hardware stays the same, but the software that I use for tactics is not allowed in IDPA, most is in IPSC, but no cover is designed into stages.

I love competiton, but I'm starting to think I should put it aside for the reasons you stated.
 

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yep, as mentioned before , cops found dead with a handful of empty cartridges, cause of how they trained on the range. The mind goes into trained reaction mode during stressful times.
 

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rocky said:
I consider the biggest diffrence between shooting sports and tactical training to be the hardware. Most action shooting use specialized guns , weaker loads and optics. I do not want to ingrain these competition habits into my muscle memory, therefore do not participate.
My solution is to use my carry gun, holster, and cover garment that I wear every day.

My gun is a bone stock Kimber, holster is a VersaMax II, and cover garment is whatever I happen to wear to the range that day.

The only differences for me is the earmuffs, eye protection, and factory 230gr FMJ loads versus the 230gr Gold Dots that I carry.

I ain't winning the matches, but I'm having a good time and at the end of the day I am better off than if I had sat home and watched the tube.

Good luck. :)
 

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oregonshooter said:
Pat,

Yes they are games. No I have no illusion that they are tactical training.

Now here is the meat of the question...

1. Who here believes they will fight like they train?

2. Who here believes that the mind does not know the difference between "mental rehersal" and actual?

3. Who here believes that people have died with empty brass in their pockets because they policed it on the range everytime they shot?

4. Who here believes that they can practice all the gun manipulation and speed increasing drills that shooting sports offer WITHOUT participating in shooting sports?

5. Who here STILL believes that competition is just a game that does not present a REAL threat to your chances of survival in a gun fight EVEN though we know it's a game?

And the question that's being asked here...



Now having said that, I want to ask you something Pat. Do you

sport shoot?
I shoot both IDPA AND USPSA,I am the Match Director of the FWCDPC.
All shooting will make you a better gun handler,just don't try to make the gun games real self defense training.
pat
 

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I observed one IDPA match when I considered joining. I did not join for a couple reasons. I do not enjoy timed scoring. I know it's part of the "game" part, but I hate being timed. I'm just not a competitive person.

I also went through this silly mindset of wanting to bring my CZ75c, which would give me a high magazine capacity in easy-to-shoot 9mm, hopefully improving my "score" - even though I said I wasn't competitive. (Maybe it had something to do with the snickering I heard in the background from a couple morons when the lone female IDPA member didn't do very well.) Maybe I felt like I had to prove myself, like I was supposed to make holes-in-one. The problem was the CZ wasn't my carry gun. It would be practical to take it to the match, but not practical for real-life if I'm trying to keep myself familiar with my carry pieces.

And that's the thing. I'd do IDPA or IPSC for fun, but that's not what I was looking for.

IDPA and IPSC have their place. They can be a load of fun just for fun's sake. I can also see how they can improve reaction time, reloading time, and help make a person's gun use second-nature. I don't think a person is going to stay in "sport mode" when he's in "life and death mode" and ask "what's my time" when the dust settles. He can effectively use what he has learned and practiced, because he has that to fall back on in a crisis. But if a person consistently practices something incorrectly, like not properly using cover, he may utilize that bad habit when it really hits the fan. But that's not IDPA's or IPSC's fault. As Pat said, don't substitute gun games for real self-defense training.

And that's where tactical shooting schools come into the picture.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Betty said:
But if a person consistently practices something incorrectly, like not properly using cover, he may utilize that bad habit when it really hits the fan.
Police Officer deaths have shown this to be the case. Thus the "you will fight as you have trained" motto.

I don't think I'm getting my point across to Pat. You can look at the shooting sports as "just games" all you want, but by playing them you are going to ingrain certain habits that will increase your chances of being killed by doing so. Regardless if you look at them as fun or are deceived into thinking they are tactics.

They are great for gun handling skills, but most of those you can learn with dry fire.

You can shoot the matches as tactically as possible also, but there are certain practices that can not be done in the shooting sports. Moving offline on the draw comes to mind in both IDPA & IPSC. A lot of stages (most classifiers) require you to stay in a box in the open as another example.

Anyway, I'm not here to convince you (Pat) or anyone else not to shoot the sports, I'm just saying "think about the big picture" if you EDC and are not just a gamer. Most of the guys that shoot IPSC would not have a gun with them in a gunfight anyway as they do not carry everyday. It's like bowling or any other sport to them.

Oh, and I was hoping someone would add examples of sport shooting methods that are not tactically sound. :)

What ya think about shooting on the move? Is it better to run full out and take your misses on the way to cover, or run to cover without firing then return fire, or to do the "gunwalk" and place accurate hits on target with increased exposure to self?
 

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oregonshooter said:
Police Officer deaths have shown this to be the case. Thus the "you will fight as you have trained" motto.

I don't think I'm getting my point across to Pat. You can look at the shooting sports as "just games" all you want, but by playing them you are going to ingrain certain habits that will increase your chances of being killed by doing so. Regardless if you look at them as fun or are deceived into thinking they are tactics.

They are great for gun handling skills, but most of those you can learn with dry fire.

You can shoot the matches as tactically as possible also, but there are certain practices that can not be done in the shooting sports. Moving offline on the draw comes to mind in both IDPA & IPSC. A lot of stages (most classifiers) require you to stay in a box in the open as another example.

Anyway, I'm not here to convince you (Pat) or anyone else not to shoot the sports, I'm just saying "think about the big picture" if you EDC and are not just a gamer. Most of the guys that shoot IPSC would not have a gun with them in a gunfight anyway as they do not carry everyday. It's like bowling or any other sport to them.

Oh, and I was hoping someone would add examples of sport shooting methods that are not tactically sound. :)

What ya think about shooting on the move? Is it better to run full out and take your misses on the way to cover, or run to cover without firing then return fire, or to do the "gunwalk" and place accurate hits on target with increased exposure to self?
This topic has been beat to death on every gun board on the internet.
Most CCW SHOOTINGS will be in your face down and dirty with the bad guy already ahead of you on the curve.
Are you going to hit, kick, get him away from you and retreat till you can draw your wepon or if you are a games guy like me start slicing the pie.Get real!
Don't not enjoy the gun games because it might cause you to fight as you train.Most of us are never going to get to that level
pat
 

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Discussion Starter #15
What level is that? I had a hard time understanding your sentence.

PS. Is there a gun handling topic that has NOT been beat to death? Sometimes an open mind will reveal something not seen before, that is why they continue to be discussed.

If you don't want to discuss it then don't.
 

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oregonshooter said:
What level is that? I had a hard time understanding your sentence.

PS. Is there a gun handling topic that has NOT been beat to death? Sometimes an open mind will reveal something not seen before, that is why they continue to be discussed.

If you don't want to discuss it then don't.
Sorry about not getting right back ,but had some work to take care of.
What I am trying to say is Idpa/Uspsa or any of the other games are going to make you a better shooter and gun handler,if you can't handle the pressure of the timer you are not going to do very well when the SHTF.
I don't have a problem with training as you fight,the problem is every trainer has a different idea of how to do it.
I believe I can take what I want out of the Games and put it in my toolbox along with my OPS training ,my boxing,martial arts and 62 years on this earth and use them all when I have to.
I shoot a single stack match on Tuesday night,a defensive match on Thuresday night,USPSA match on Friday night and two IDPA AND 3 USPSA MATCHES PER MONTH along with practice on WEDNESDAY EVENING.
I also carry every time I am out and about.
I enjoy all the games and just don't believe they are going to get me killed if the SHTF.
PAT
 

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Discussion Starter #17
How do you explain the cops with brass in their pockets? Don't think it can happen to you? Most trainers think this is a reality. The facts (actual shootings) seem to be inconclusive from what I've seen.

Is it just a sales gimmick to get people into shooting schools?

EDIT: I guess I'm asking "what do you base your belief on?" Gut feeling alone?
 

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Practice....NOT Training.....And.....

Betty said:
I don't think a person is going to stay in "sport mode" when he's in "life and death mode" and ask "what's my time" when the dust settles. He can effectively use what he has learned and practiced, because he has that to fall back on in a crisis. But if a person consistently practices something incorrectly, like not properly using cover, he may utilize that bad habit when it really hits the fan. But that's not IDPA's of IPSC's fault. As Pat said, don't substitute gun games for real self-defense training.

And that's where tactical shooting schools come into the picture.
Betty, you and some of the others here are missing some important points in the IDPA situation. Let me run them down:

1. IDPA was created because IPSC had gotten too much of a game and had grown ridiculous in the equipment with those $5000 race guns and little requirements. IDPA was created with the input of a lot of professional shooters. Guys that have BTDT FOR REAL.

2. IDPA is NOT training! It's practice. Most of the folks in my club are experienced shooters and many are either certified instructors or folks who work in areas where gun handling is a matter of life or death everyday. Trauma teaches....everybody. That's why most IDPA scenarios are based on real world incidents. That's why it's revolver neutral with an 18rd limit per string. That's about what most of us carry on us daily.

3A. IDPA has a time limit for the purposes of simulating stress....not to promote "competition." This is much the same way our military substitutes sleep and food deprivation to simulate the stress of combat on the body over long periods. This kind of pressure can be built fast for valid training. That's the military. Civilians who subconsciously wish to do well or even to "win" will subject themselves to similar pressure. That's where the next element enters.

3B. PROCEDURAL penalties for failing to use proper tactics. That's why there are two score keepers that run each stage with the shooter. One watches ONLY for safety issues and the other monitors the tactics. There is even an ineffable DING point for simple "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT." That's something to prevent the gamers from taking advantage even when it may not violate a specific rule.....but you know it's wrong.

4. I can't speak for other clubs...but MY IDPA club stresses shooting from retention....close range shots....on multiple targets at different tactically critical ranges. Shooting tactically means two things: Taking the closest first OR taking the most dangerous first when more than one are visible at the same time....so the guy with a knife is not quite so deadly as his buddy with the shotgun just behind. We also STRESS as part of the rules the hand or elbow strike AND a shouted warning if the situation would require it. We have props to support this.

5. I have learned a great deal from this group of folks. I actually changed my tactical doctrine based on this. I went from "double taps" to tactical engagement which means every target is engaged with one round before any target gets a second round. The theory being that taking time to put two into one bad guy may give bad guy #3 across the room time to plug YOU. So...like a good host....Everybody gets "FIRSTS" before anybody gets "SECONDS." Were it not for IDPA, I don't know if I'd have picked this up as quickly.

I learn a lot from these guys based on their daily or past experiences. We have guys who are combat vets from every conflict since WWII. we have current DHS folks, we have street cops and we have folks who work tedious jobs in the private sector, but maybe they worked for the State Department in Central America during the Contra revolution....and ran ops.....But I have learned from grandfathers and janitors.....Everybody has something to offer. Life is the great instructor.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
ExSoldier762 said:
3B. PROCEDURAL penalties for failing to use proper tactics. That's why there are two score keepers that run each stage with the shooter. One watches ONLY for safety issues and the other monitors the tactics. There is even an ineffable DING point for simple "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT." That's something to prevent the gamers from taking advantage even when it may not violate a specific rule.....but you know it's wrong.

Good post as usual ExSoldier762.

The quote above in-lies the problem that I'm trying to bring out. There are many instances where procedurals are given for performing the CORRECT tactical response. My original posts list two.

Also an over all completion time is a good stress additive, but racing against a clock only encourages gaming. The focus becomes on "who was the fastest" not who shot the stage "correctly" or "correctly and the fastest."


On a side note: What are your split times on double taps? Is that enough to make a difference verses the added benefit of double damage (assuming both hits) and extra chance of a hit?
 

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oregonshooter said:
How do you explain the cops with brass in their pockets? Don't think it can happen to you? Most trainers think this is a reality. The facts (actual shootings) seem to be inconclusive from what I've seen.

Is it just a sales gimmick to get people into shooting schools?

EDIT: I guess I'm asking "what do you base your belief on?" Gut feeling alone?
Gut feeling has a lot to do with it,also discussions with fellow shooters who have walked the walk.We have a former Spec OP INSTRUCTER who shoots with us and he believes as I DO that any shooting is better than none.
 
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