[ENSANE1970]

All the LEO's I've talked to about this subject, say they wouldn't take a head shot, unless that was the only shot they had, ie...BG around the corner, in a hallway, sticking his head and arm out to return fire. Any other time it would be considered, excessive force, loss of job and time in jail. My guess, if one of us in the CCW community, shot some BG in the head, we'd be in the same boat. My question is, the whole point of protecting yourself, is stopping the threat. So what difference does it make, a COM shot stops the BG's heart, or one in the forhead, stops his brain, dead is dead. What are your thoughts?

 

[madmike]

Take the shot you've got, lawyers be damned.

Anyone able to cite any cases tried, where shot placement actually worked against the defensive shooter?

mm

 

[Zundfolge]

In a crisis situation you're ability to hit your target is going to be degraded so thats the MAIN reason not to try for the head shot, not legal issues.

Under stress you're more likely to hit HIGHER than POA anyway so if you pull a headshot nobody is going to notice (unless its a coup de grace in the back of the head of a face down suspect).

I would be willing to bet that a lot of headshots in police and self defense shootings where actually aimed at COM.

 

[P95Carry]

Head shot would IMO be a ''luxury'' under stress tho maybe one to consider after several COM shots. Something to practice but way too demanding for many folks running on adrenaline overload.

Trouble with COM, even successful shots - few will be ''droppers'' - and several seconds of bleed-out time will permit continued chance of incoming.

The reason the head shot is so theoretically useful is simply the ''lights-out'' potential - and so a possible drop on the spot and cessation of shooting at you.

To begin a defensive shoot with head tho would I suspect for the majority lead to misses - and so greater chances of being hit oneself.

 

[AirForceShooter]

you're going to shoot as you trained.
For most of us that COM.
A head shot is a long chance shot. If it's your only shot, TAKE it.

AFS

 

[Bud White]

As said most the time its not what your aiming for but if its all ay got go for it .

Course you put 7-8 into com and he aint feeling the effects i'd be thinking of shooting at the head real fast then ..

or the Pelvis either are hard to hit but if the guys jacked up or has on armor maybe your only chance.

 

[BlueLion]

Ol' Mel said it best. "Aim small miss small" I am going COM and if that fails I will try a head shot. See with a COM shot you are guaranteed to hit some real estate, but with going for the head only, and under stress you may miss and end up getting killed. Moreover, it was a recent news clip about a woman that shot a man in her house in the chest and he stopped. But, she kept cussing and shooting even while on the phone with the dispatcher. The dispatcher even had to tell her daughter to tell her to stop shooting. I think she had .38, but anyway most bad guys will stop out of pure shock because they don't think you are armed.

 

[ELCruisr]

I would also think that besides the stress induced accuracy problems that head is going to be an erraticly moving target and missing it may mean hitting an innocent. THAT might very well land you in deep trouble not to mention how my concience would feel. Train COM and that's what will most likely get a hit in a real world encounter. It may not be the perfect one shot stop but any hit is going to beat a miss in my book.

Eric

 

[rstickle]

Ol' Mel said it best. "Aim small miss small"

:rofl: The guy that actually said that is named Mark Baker, he was teaching Ol' Mel to shoot a flintlock. They liked the line so much they wrote it into the movie, and Mark hasn't ha a moments peace since! :image035:

I am going COM and if that fails I will try a head shot. See with a COM shot you are guaranteed to hit some real estate, but with going for the head only, and under stress you may miss and end up getting killed.

My take has always been if you have to shoot take the best shot you get, and if he doesn't stop, take it again.

 

[Zundfolge]

Bud brought up a pelvis shot ... that would be better than a head shot attempt ... at least if you miss you're likely to hit them COM.

Also, pelvis is a structural area ... NOBODY, I don't care what drugs they are on, will continue to advance with a broken pelvis ... the laws of physics work against them.



Actually since the muzzle is going to rise maybe the best tactic is to aim for the pelvis and then just keep shooting ... the shots will "walk" up the torso toward the head.

 

[Ben Hennessy]

Zundfolge That is great information. I myself could not do a head shot unless I had to. I also feel financally it would destroy me. I always thought if I had to shoot I would aim at the torso but the information you gave here makes me think differently. When I took a tacical course they taught us to start at the croch and work your way up untill you have no more rounds.

 

[WJP9]

Im sure reprocussions from taking the said head shot would be based upon the situation and neccessity of the shot....i.e. Armed bank robber who has already taken out a bystander would, I'm sure, be warrented.

 

[one eyed fatman]

If a head shot isn't possible or you can't get a good chance at a head shot shoot through the wall. Unless or course it's brick.

 

[Rob72]

Also, pelvis is a structural area ... NOBODY, I don't care what drugs they are on, will continue to advance with a broken pelvis ... the laws of physics work against them.

Interesting point from another forum: anyone ever seen or heard of a pelvic fracture induced by a handgun caliber? Mulling it over, I realized I haven't, and I've seen more than a few(pelvic fractures and shootings), discussed more in training sessions. Realistically, to "blow the structure", you'd have to hit the femoral condyle-the hip joint-, which is not much different than trying a CNS shot, so...... Granted, you have a nice confluence of vessels in the pelvis, but certaing not a split second fight-stopper.

The crotch is a favorite target for a variety of vengeance/dominance street displays, and in 5 years with EMS and 8 more in med-surg, I've never seen a pelvic fx, as a result. Not to say it can't happen, but given the numbers, I would have expected to see at least one, if the theory was valid. More the province of rifles and shotguns.......?

 

[MattInFla]

Excellent point, Rob72. It takes a whole lot of energy to break the pelvis. I'm thinking rifle or slug from a shottie.

Perhaps not even then.

Certainly, there is a lot of vascular compromise available from a pistol round there, and the target may exsanguinate eventually, bit it is probably not an instant fight-stopper, as you noted.

Matt

 

[shaggykb]

you're going to shoot as you trained.

Agreed.

 

[Bud White]

That is a Good point Rob72 and one you never read about so is it just theory ?

But i think you have given us the heads up since as you say you would think by the amount of time you have spent in medical field seeing the pelvic shots you should have seen one broke by now even if by chance..

 

[MattInFla]

That is a Good point Rob72 and one you never read about so is it just theory ?

But i think you have given us the heads up since as you say you would think by the amount of time you have spent in medical field seeing the pelvic shots you should have seen one broke by now even if by chance..

To amplify a bit, I have also seen some pelvic shootings w/o pelvic fractures.

Heck, I have seen the front tire of a full size, 1970's era pickup truck roll right over a guy's pelvis - no fracture.

In my experience, unstable pelvic fractures in robust adults are the domain of long falls and motorcycle accidents.

Matt

 

[Bud White]

Well scratch that off the list of place to shoot i suppose

Unless I'm shooting 500 S&W at the time

 

[MattInFla]

A quick scan of OrthoWeb and a couple other sites revealed no cases of pelvic fracture secondary to gunshot wounds.

Plenty of arms / legs, but no pelvises.

Matt