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A lot of drills are nothing more than range entertainment options. At least it helps provide variety and contributes to folks working on and maintaining their shooting skills.
I agree. I guess it just turned me off when he talked about head shots only and perfect guns for people who never use them.

I’m primarily a shotgunner. I went to the range recently with one of my carry guns and realized I suck. I’ve been doing drills working on grip and trigger control.

Your quote above is spot on and it’s what I’ve been doing over the last couple weeks and hope to be able to stay at it weekly until weather brings it to a halt. I still suck but already see improvement and am determined.

I guess I reacted to his comments too quickly.


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Anyone looking for a Large double stack 380 should give the Bersa 380 Plus a look. 15 round capacity and Walther PPK clone. I has two of them. Really nice guns.
 

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Think the main difference we are seeing, and even more apparent when you bring up the Shield EZ, is that those .380 Glocks are blowback. They are not locked breech, like the Shield EZ or even the Glock 42.

Now, if they redesigned those larger models to make a 30S like hybrid, and got the weight down to allow for a locked action opposed to blowback... then I do think that there would be a market. Huge market? Doubt it for ammo cost. But this also scratches out the design costs already being put up, because the original 25/28 are blowback. Will Glock put those resources in an “unsure” market? Probably not.

Now, what would people rather have; a blowback .380 the size of a 19/26, or a 9mm locked breech 19/26?
Great points on blowback vs locked breech.

Right now the major market area is the 9 mm. But, there is a growing market segment for milder .380 19/26 sized guns. As the 9 mm major market segment becomes even more saturated, I think more companies will explore the fringe or smaller segment areas.

As ammo makers continue to improve the .380 defensive use offerings, that too may help. Hopefully a maker will also try to undercut others in price for range fodder as more .380s are bought out there.
 

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If you put 50 round a week through the 26, you wouldn't feel confident carrying it?

I went to the range today for "9mm day." Only took my G26 and my G48. I was OK with the 48 (221 rounds), but the 26 really beat up my hands, which are still stiff several hours later. I put it away after 110 rounds. This has been coming on with the 26 for the past year with the arthritis and declining grip strength, and is why my future is .380. That 26 is the best carry gun I've ever owned, but I'm probably going to give it to my (younger) brother-in-law. Any gun that I can't practice a lot with is no good to me.
 

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I like the good ol' Bill Drill. I always start off with it first in any session. I think its a good drill to shoot "cold" and then practice on.
 

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What drills would you consider relevant to self defense training?
I would consider all trigger time relevant to self defense training.

The issue I had with the drill was with using it for a sole criteria to whether one should carry a certain handgun or not.

I clarified a bit in a following post, but perhaps not as clear as I should have.




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Except, here’s the thing: there's a market-and I dare say, a growing market—of people looking for a lighter recoiling, larger pistol not for necessarily for carry, but for HD, or other purposes. They don’t want the teeny-tiny .380’s, because they have unpleasant recoil, tiny grips leading to difficult control, and not so great sights. They want something with a rail that they can mount a light on. They want a full-sized grip. They want something with easy to see sights...heck, even something that can wear a red dot.

S&W caught on to it with their Shield EZ...if they doublestack it, it'll likely be a winner. My mother-in-law just got an EZ on my recommendation, after trying out a whole bunch of different pistols...including a G19, which she was unable to rack the slide on (and yes, I showed her proper technique...)...in fact, she could only rack the slide on one 9mm pistol, a full-size 1911, and then only when the hammer was cocked.

Sure, it’s easy to say that a G19 or 26 is light enough recoiling, and still a 9mm, and maybe to you and I, it is; but there’s a lot of people, getting to be more all the time, that it just doesn’t work for...and I don’t see why a gun company (particularly one that already has the product developed, and existing models) would want to ignore this market segment.
I couldn't agree more. As recently as 3 years ago, I thought the G26 was a fairly soft shooting gun, although even then it wasn't particularly easy for me to rack the slide. Over the past year, it has become downright unpleasant to shoot. I can still shoot it more accurately than any of my other pistols, but I don't particularly want to.

With the population getting older, along with more women becoming gun owners, you'd think there'd be a growing demand for soft shooting, easy to rack, double stack .380s. I've never seen a Cheetah or a Bersa Thunder Plus in the flesh, but given that they're blowback designs, my guess would be that they're hard to rack and harder to shoot than their caliber, size and weight would indicate.

As for locked breech, double stack .380s, right now I think SCCY is the only game in town. And that's why I own one. But I'm definitely one of the people begging the tier 1 manufacturers to produce a gun like that.
 

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Anyone looking for a Large double stack 380 should give the Bersa 380 Plus a look. 15 round capacity and Walther PPK clone. I has two of them. Really nice guns.
I assume you're referring to the Thunder Plus, yes? The Thunder has a reputation for being snappy and not a joy to shoot. Do you find that to be the case? Also, if it's a blowback, it must have a heavy slide and stiff spring. How is it to rack the slide?
 

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I like the good ol' Bill Drill. I always start off with it first in any session. I think its a good drill to shoot "cold" and then practice on.
Same here, and it's evolved over time. First shots at the range are after a minute or two of casual talk with a range buddy followed by his "Bogey" call, at which point I turn around, ID the target on which he's taped a gun silhouette, and attempt to put two through the heart and one through the head, all in less than a second from his "Bogey" call.

It's not easy, cold. That's for sure. My range's closet targets are 15 yards. I'm lucky to hit it at all.

After that, I work through slow fire, barrier, and multiple targets before doing the Bogey drill again with my last three shots.

Interestingly enough, I'm usually worse! But over time, my cold Bogey calls are getting better.
 

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I carry a Glock 32 .357 SIG some days, so recoil is not an issue for me. I don't find the Bersa Thunder 380's to be too snappy for a blow-back pistol. I've owned several and they are underrated guns for sure.
If you are traveling light, the Bersas are worth a look. I have the model below as well as the all nickel model which is really cool looking. Only real draw back is the 15 round mags are expensive and hard to find.

 

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I went to the range today for "9mm day." Only took my G26 and my G48. I was OK with the 48 (221 rounds), but the 26 really beat up my hands, which are still stiff several hours later. I put it away after 110 rounds. This has been coming on with the 26 for the past year with the arthritis and declining grip strength, and is why my future is .380. That 26 is the best carry gun I've ever owned, but I'm probably going to give it to my (younger) brother-in-law. Any gun that I can't practice a lot with is no good to me.
I have mild osteoarthritis, mainly in joints I've injured, but also in under-used joints, as well.

For years I played the bongos. Zero problems. Then, after a two-year hiatus from 2017 to this Spring, I picked it back up again. My knuckles and hands hurt quite a bit, so I quit again for two months, then eased back into it exponentially, first just one tap on each hand a day, the next day two taps, then four, 8, 16, 32, 64, etc. When I play, I average 480 bpm, so it took me about 9 days to break a minute. By two weeks I was playing more than half an hour straight, which is enough to run me through my usual favorites.

If you have access to somewhere you can shoot where you don't have to pay for range time, consider doing the same thing.

Here's just such a schedule, with two days of rest for cartilage healing and repair between firings:

First, rest 6 weeks without shooting or any other significant stress. This is how long it takes cartilage to heal from repetitive stress.

Then, warm up with a good walk, some arm-burners, squats, and other normal exercises before you shoot. It's important your joints are primed to take the stress.

Day Shots Cumulative
1 1 1
2 rest
3 rest
4 2 3
5 rest
6 rest
7 4 7
8 rest
9 rest
10 8 15
11 rest
12 rest
13 16 31
14 rest
15 rest
16 32 63
17 rest
18 rest
19 64 127
20 rest
21 rest
22 128 255

In three weeks, you'll have gone through 250 rounds of ammunition, with 128 on your last day.

From then on, I'd limit things to shooting once a week to maintain the strength of the cartilage, but no more than a box of 50 rounds.

If you find yourself not having shot for a while, work your way back up from the bottom.

These are the same types of consistency of use, limits on maximum use, and intervals prescribed by professionals in the field of arthritis.

Good luck!
 

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I have mild osteoarthritis, mainly in joints I've injured, but also in under-used joints, as well.

For years I played the bongos. Zero problems. Then, after a two-year hiatus from 2017 to this Spring, I picked it back up again. My knuckles and hands hurt quite a bit, so I quit again for two months, then eased back into it exponentially, first just one tap on each hand a day, the next day two taps, then four, 8, 16, 32, 64, etc. When I play, I average 480 bpm, so it took me about 9 days to break a minute. By two weeks I was playing more than half an hour straight, which is enough to run me through my usual favorites.

If you have access to somewhere you can shoot where you don't have to pay for range time, consider doing the same thing.

Here's just such a schedule, with two days of rest for cartilage healing and repair between firings:

First, rest 6 weeks without shooting or any other significant stress. This is how long it takes cartilage to heal from repetitive stress.

Then, warm up with a good walk, some arm-burners, squats, and other normal exercises before you shoot. It's important your joints are primed to take the stress.

DayShotsCumulative
111
2rest
3rest
423
5rest
6rest
747
8rest
9rest
10815
11rest
12rest
131631
14rest
15rest
163263
17rest
18rest
1964127
20rest
21rest
22128255

In three weeks, you'll have gone through 250 rounds of ammunition, with 128 on your last day.

From then on, I'd limit things to shooting once a week to maintain the strength of the cartilage, but no more than a box of 50 rounds.

If you find yourself not having shot for a while, work your way back up from the bottom.

These are the same types of consistency of use, limits on maximum use, and intervals prescribed by professionals in the field of arthritis.

Good luck!
Or just squeeze a rubber ball periodically. :)
 
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I have mild osteoarthritis, mainly in joints I've injured, but also in under-used joints, as well.

For years I played the bongos. Zero problems. Then, after a two-year hiatus from 2017 to this Spring, I picked it back up again. My knuckles and hands hurt quite a bit, so I quit again for two months, then eased back into it exponentially, first just one tap on each hand a day, the next day two taps, then four, 8, 16, 32, 64, etc. When I play, I average 480 bpm, so it took me about 9 days to break a minute. By two weeks I was playing more than half an hour straight, which is enough to run me through my usual favorites.

If you have access to somewhere you can shoot where you don't have to pay for range time, consider doing the same thing.

Here's just such a schedule, with two days of rest for cartilage healing and repair between firings:

First, rest 6 weeks without shooting or any other significant stress. This is how long it takes cartilage to heal from repetitive stress.

Then, warm up with a good walk, some arm-burners, squats, and other normal exercises before you shoot. It's important your joints are primed to take the stress.

Day Shots Cumulative
1 1 1
2 rest
3 rest
4 2 3
5 rest
6 rest
7 4 7
8 rest
9 rest
10 8 15
11 rest
12 rest
13 16 31
14 rest
15 rest
16 32 63
17 rest
18 rest
19 64 127
20 rest
21 rest
22 128 255

In three weeks, you'll have gone through 250 rounds of ammunition, with 128 on your last day.

From then on, I'd limit things to shooting once a week to maintain the strength of the cartilage, but no more than a box of 50 rounds.

If you find yourself not having shot for a while, work your way back up from the bottom.

These are the same types of consistency of use, limits on maximum use, and intervals prescribed by professionals in the field of arthritis.

Good luck!
I'm rather beyond all that. I've actually been doing regular grip exercises, including the rubber ball and GripMaster Pro, for a few years now. They help, but it's still been a very gradual decline. I also shoot regularly, but there's no place I can shoot every day. My biggest problem though, is severe degenerative arthritis in the pinky finger of my shooting hand. The last (distal?) joint is beyond repair, and my orthopedist tells me that my only options are to either live with the pain or have the last two segments of the finger fused. Obviously, fusing is an absolute last resort and I have no intention of doing that if I can avoid it. Other than jamming the finger, which is excruciatingly painful, the only other regular thing I do that really bothers it a lot is shooting.
 

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Wow. Finally made it to the end. I'm not going to pretend I know what kind of pain you are in after shooting. I'm also not going to try to say I know everything about all guns. What I'm going to give is my impressions, and my opinion.

As far as the .380 being an adequate SD round. I would say yes. But, it depends. You're going to want to make sure you get plenty of rounds down range with whichever gun you choose. You want to make sure that you are carrying the heaviest fastest rounds you can for it. A good example might be something along the lines of the Winchester PDX rounds. 95gr, approx 1000 fps. Between some of the pictures here, and watching Paul Harrell on YouTube, with his video of I think* the ec9s vs the lcp, and using a meat target, I'm convinced that it is adequate, however i wouldn't push it out past 12 to 15 yards if i didn't absolutely have to, and would prefer to keep it under 10 yards. Gun choice here is going to make a difference. A 4" barrel is going to make a fairly decent difference with this round, over a 2-3" barrel, and might allow for further distance.

I am also a firm believer of carrying the biggest round that you can shoot accurately and without pain. I unfortunately came to this realization well after I bought my 40. If I had come to that before I bought it, I'd be carrying a 45. Theres nothing wrong with the round. I enjoy it, do not find it snappy, and am confident in my abilities with it. Unfortunately, i have only been to the range once in the past year or so. I tore a tendon in my right elbow, which has directly effected the strength of my grip on my gun. I can still shoot and control it, but until I get through the surgery and PT, I pay for 50 round range sessions for the next 2 to 3 days after.

My last range day, i rented several 9mm, testing, so i can expand my carry options. I went through close to 100 rounds of 9mm that day without pain. The ones I focused on might be what interests you. I say this because this may open up other options for you. The main ones that I tried that stuck in my head were the Springfield XDs, the Remington R51, and the CZ 75. The Remington and CZ were heavier and more solid feeling and the XDs. I also felt less a lot lot less recoil withe those two. The R51 had a recoil that was more of a push almost straight back into the web of my hand. The CZ was heavy enough it absorbed the most of the recoil. These are interesting guns, and I actually would consider putting one of each into my collection at some point. The R51 also has a Crimson Trace option, if needed. Out of the two, the R51 was the easier to rack. That would be the one I would probably go for, if forced to only one of the two.

This is not, in any shape or form, trying to talk you out of a 380. Just offering options that you may not have considered. It may be worth it to you to see if a local range has these available for rent.

These are my $0.02, and my opinions. And you know what they say about opinions. My $0.02 might be worth what you paid for it, or, it might be worth a lot more, depending on how they work for you.
 

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I have no doubt that in 10-years, when the FBI effeminates who couldn't qualify w/ the 38Spl, .357mag, 10mm, .40cal, or 45ACP, also can't qualify w/ the Wonder-9, they will do a "study" that says the .380 is the ultimate self-defense round and will using taxpayer money to buy all their agents the latest Tupperware in that caliber. Pass.
 

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For convenience, I often carry a .380 as my only weapon.
When not carrying it, I carry an airweight 9mm J-frame.

The .380 is about as effective as .38Sp, and maybe 2/3 as effective as 9mm.
I don't feel undergunned with either.
 

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I have no doubt that in 10-years, when the FBI effeminates who couldn't qualify w/ the 38Spl, .357mag, 10mm, .40cal, or 45ACP, also can't qualify w/ the Wonder-9, they will do a "study" that says the .380 is the ultimate self-defense round and will using taxpayer money to buy all their agents the latest Tupperware in that caliber. Pass.
For kicks and grins back in 1990, my friend and I set up a duplicate FBI qualification range. I deferred to his expertise, as he was a former U.S. Army MP, firearms instructor, and deputy sheriff.

I exceeded the qualifications using my Ruger Super Redhawk .44 magnum, the same gun with which I hunted deer.

For many years, however, a Walther PPK .380 ACP was my carry piece. Why? Because it was highly concealable and quite effective.

Now... Are you going to continue to sling around disparaging crap like, "when the FBI effeminates" and "Wonder-9?"

Or are you going to stop trying to measure one's manhood by the caliber of one's firearm?

These days I carry a 15-round 9mm. It's nearly as concealable as my .380, but packs more punch and more rounds. It's also nearly identical to the 9mm I carried for decades in the military.

I won't, however, disparage anyone who chooses to carry a .380. They're quite effective. In fact, I wouldn't at all mind picking up another Walther as a BUG.
 
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