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Now... Are you going to continue to sling around disparaging crap like, "when the FBI effeminates" and "Wonder-9?"

Or are you going to stop trying to measure one's manhood by the caliber of one's firearm?

These days I carry a 15-round 9mm. It's nearly as concealable as my .380, but packs more punch and more rounds. It's also nearly identical to the 9mm I carried for decades in the military.

I won't, however, disparage anyone who chooses to carry a .380. They're quite effective. In fact, I wouldn't at all mind picking up another Walther as a BUG.
Yes, I will continue to disparage sub-standard rounds for Police use or for SD when more capable rounds are available. But I have no doubt that your last statement is prophetic as far as the FBI is concerned.
 

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Yes, I will continue to disparage sub-standard rounds for Police use or for SD when more capable rounds are available. But I have no doubt that your last statement is prophetic as far as the FBI is concerned.
Then that's your measure.
 

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Yes, I will continue to disparage sub-standard rounds for Police use or for SD when more capable rounds are available. But I have no doubt that your last statement is prophetic as far as the FBI is concerned.
A 90 grain XTP JHP at 1200 fps from a G42 doesn't strike me as a sub-standard self defense round.
 

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How many of you gunslingers here have actually been shot once or multiple times? I have, By Gum.
I've been hit with a .45 Colt bullet before. Luckily it was a bullet that ricocheted off of a steel target during a SASS shooting match. Dang thing still hurt and left a bruise.
 

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A 90 grain XTP JHP at 1200 fps from a G42 doesn't strike me as a sub-standard self defense round.

- 380 is an excellent SD round
- too many people overestimate what humans are made of
- we are fragile
- literally

- had an old cop friend (70 if he was still alive)
- was a cop in a major city from age 18-55

- I asked him when I was younger what the best caliber was
- he said he'd seen plenty killed with 22's and many survive 45acp

- in retirement he carried a 380 LCP
- having been a city cop I'm sure he saw what it really took to 'drop' a bad guy and was perfectly fine with a 380

- as the saying goes, if you think a 32 or 380 is something to laugh at, stand 7 yards in front of a gun loaded with these 'weak' rounds and send me a postcard
- exactly

- they work

- fbi work, police work, and SD work are all 3 different things too










:)
 

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- fbi work, police work, and SD work are all 3 different things too
Bro.. a gunfight is a gunfight. The only difference in those 3 classes of individual is the overall likelihood of encountering danger. People seeking out or ferreting out dangerous people are going to easily be considered more likely to find those circumstances than those who are not seeking it. All that said, its not unreasonable to perhaps arm yourself a little better if you are walking onto the field of battle. The bottom line is that bad people do bad things to other people and one mans gunfight is no less perilous than another mans gunfight. A LEO may never find himself/herself in a gunfight and a citizen going to corner store for milk- might. Handguns are minimalist weapons to begin with and what is good for one person in the name of SD is as good for another, no matter their job classification. If the suggestion is that the FBI needs one caliber, patrol LEOs need another and Citizen can get buy with yet another.. I consider that a silly notion.
 

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I really see these caliber discussions from a different perspective than I did years ago. Caliber to me is mostly a question of concealment. For those deep concealment days where detection is absolutely to be avoided I use a Beretta Pico because of its thin width and light weight and no, there are no 9mm's that come close. In that vein even a P32 can have a role to play. I also believe that smaller calibers require different tactics than larger ones and even different style ammo considerations.

The key here is knowing the limitations and attributes of what you decide on and how to most effectively deploy that choice. Being honest about what you carry and what your personal skills really are should dictate most of our carry choices. If your blissfully going about with a 380 believing that it is "just as effective" as 45 acp than your not being honest with yourself or prepared to use that 380 to the optimum effectiveness in my opinion. If you just "believe" that 5 rounds in a snub is all you need and you can't put meaningful shots on target under stress than no its not all you need. Likewise if you think capacity makes up for a lack of skill or determination (mindset) then again your kidding yourself.
 

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A 90 grain XTP JHP at 1200 fps from a G42 doesn't strike me as a sub-standard self defense round.
Not being argumentative, but there are multiple reasons why neither the military nor civilian police carry it.

Moral: Carry the largest-caliber weapion you can control and conceal.
 

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Carry the largest gun with the most capacity in the largest caliber you can control and will carry all day every day.
 

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I've been hit with a .45 Colt bullet before. Luckily it was a bullet that ricocheted off of a steel target during a SASS shooting match. Dang thing still hurt and left a bruise.
I have a friend who was shot with a 45 ACP while driving on the freeway.

A car full of kids pulled up along side and fired. Was hit in the arm. The shot went through, hit his girl friend sitting in the passenger seat, when through her leg into the door.

He was able to call the police, then he followed the car with the kids, got their license number, and then went to the hospital.

Big bullet, big caliber, and it didn't stop him or even slow him down much.

Both he and the GF were OK after treatment.

Just goes to show that big caliber guns aren't death rays and shot placement is more important than caliber.

A 380 to the chest probably would have stopped him immediately.
 

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Studies are showing 70 to 80% of the shots miss. So, it's the capacity of the .380 that is a negative. What are they usually, 6 rounds? I know, everyone is an expert shot here. This is just what the studies show and why agencies are switching to higher capacity arms.
 

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Studies are showing 70 to 80% of the shots miss. So, it's the capacity of the .380 that is a negative. What are they usually, 6 rounds? I know, everyone is an expert shot here. This is just what the studies show and why agencies are switching to higher capacity arms.
Sure, but a lot of folks only carry snub revolvers with five rounds.....so a 6+1 380 is a capacity ​improvement.....
 
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Caliber, power, capacity, are all subordinate to the needs and skill of the user.
 

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Want to really blow some minds? Apparently several of the instructors at a local range are carrying TX22 pistols for defensive purposes, since they have proven reliable and accurate. The lack of recoil allows them to fire bursts quickly and accurately. With 16 rounds in the gun they feel they have enough capacity in a light package.

Not the choice I’d make, mostly due to rimfire duds, but I can certainly see how some people would.
 

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Studies are showing 70 to 80% of the shots miss. So, it's the capacity of the .380 that is a negative. What are they usually, 6 rounds? I know, everyone is an expert shot here. This is just what the studies show and why agencies are switching to higher capacity arms.
Do people carry higher capacities because they miss; or do they miss because they know they have so many more chances to hit?

I think marksmanship was better, out of necessity, in the wheelgun days. Would be interesting to look up.
 

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Not being argumentative, but there are multiple reasons why neither the military nor civilian police carry it.

Moral: Carry the largest-caliber weapion you can control and conceal.
The main reason is that they are not encumbered by their carry method. They don’t carry concealed and have to deal with size and printing issues. If I didn’t need to pocket carry, or carry on my belt concealed IWB, AIWB, or OWB, I’d carry a full size big caliber every day like LEO and Military folks.

As for your “Moral”; it’s a good statement, but that may mean a compromise of weapon size and caliber that non-civilians are not concerned with.
 
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Studies are showing 70 to 80% of the shots miss. So, it's the capacity of the .380 that is a negative. What are they usually, 6 rounds? I know, everyone is an expert shot here. This is just what the studies show and why agencies are switching to higher capacity arms.



🤔 I wonder what the "studies" show that the average citizen will ever even shoot their gun in a self defensive situation. If I was guessing, I would probably say about 1% of us, on this forum, will ever actually fire our gun in self defense. I don't know, I could be wrong, It could be 3%.

Imo, just carry something that is never going to be a burden to you. Something that you will carry EVERY DAY, EVERY WHERE (legally), period.

It's all about shot placement and penetration, and a 380 acp with a good fmj will do both of those just fine, imo.
 
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