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Do people carry higher capacities because they miss; or do they miss because they know they have so many more chances to hit?
If someone could provide reasonable assurances I would only ever be dealing with one violent criminal, I might very well decide six rounds was enough.

I think marksmanship was better, out of necessity, in the wheelgun days. Would be interesting to look up.
My grandfather, b. 1902, carried his .410 shotgun to school every day, beginning around the third or fourth grade. His dad gave him one cartridge. If he hit his target, supper would be plentiful, as a good-sized rabbit provided meat enough several members of the family. If he missed, well, being the youngest of nine kids, seconds were hard to come by. Living on the farm, they always had plenty of fruits and vegetables, though. Often fresh, but at least canned during the winter.

I may be marksmanship was better, out of necessity, all right, but in everyday tasks, such as procuring dinner. Gun duals were actually quite rare.
 

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Bro.. a gunfight is a gunfight. The only difference in those 3 classes of individual is the overall likelihood of encountering danger. People seeking out or ferreting out dangerous people are going to easily be considered more likely to find those circumstances than those who are not seeking it. All that said, its not unreasonable to perhaps arm yourself a little better if you are walking onto the field of battle. The bottom line is that bad people do bad things to other people and one mans gunfight is no less perilous than another mans gunfight. A LEO may never find himself/herself in a gunfight and a citizen going to corner store for milk- might. Handguns are minimalist weapons to begin with and what is good for one person in the name of SD is as good for another, no matter their job classification. If the suggestion is that the FBI needs one caliber, patrol LEOs need another and Citizen can get buy with yet another.. I consider that a silly notion.


- no my point was police/fbi/and average person have different needs and risks
- you are *NOT* likley to EVER get into a "GUNFIGHT" as an average-joe CCW person
- your ccw gun will sit in your pocket for decades gathering dust and retire uneventfully... that is a 99.9999% probability

- now for police and fbi all of that changes significantly, thus their needs are different from 'average guys' needs

- lots of CCW people THINK that they will get into some tactical 1/2-hour long gun-battle with Darth Vader, but reality says you're more likley to win the Powerball jackpot.... twice...











:)
 

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Not being argumentative, but there are multiple reasons why neither the military nor civilian police carry it.

Moral: Carry the largest-caliber weapion you can control and conceal.

- CCW holder is NOT 'military' OR 'police'
- we are regular good people with guns
- our requirements are statistically and practically different from military or law enforcement
- largest caliber theory in non-LEO situations is irrelevant, again talk to CITY cops who see dead people shot from 22s 32s and 380s ALL the time

- the best caliber is the one you have
- if anyone thinks a 22 is petting zoo, please, stand in front of a gun loaded with one.
- it will stop you just fine

- now FBI doing raids with 22's? not a good idea... but average CCW holders, dispite carrying guns, are not police, special agents, delta-force, space-force, 007, CIA or any other type of commando..


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- CCW holder is NOT 'military' OR 'police'
- we are regular good people with guns
- our requirements are statistically and practically different from military or law enforcement
- largest caliber theory in non-LEO situations is irrelevant, again talk to CITY cops who see dead people shot from 22s 32s and 380s ALL the time

- the best caliber is the one you have
- if anyone thinks a 22 is petting zoo, please, stand in front of a gun loaded with one.
- it will stop you just fine

- now FBI doing raids with 22's? not a good idea... but average CCW holders, dispite carrying guns, are not police, special agents, delta-force, space-force, 007, CIA or any other type of commando..


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I agree w/ everything here, but you missed the point--and that is fine as I am not here to argue.
 

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It doesn't matter what our requirements are. If evidence suggests something else is better, regardless of mission or objective, we are allowed same.

It all boils down to shooting good with what you have, no?
 

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It doesn't matter what our requirements are. If evidence suggests something else is better, regardless of mission or objective, we are allowed same.

It all boils down to shooting good with what you have, no?
Yes, I think that is an accurate statement.

A great example for me is that today we took some foster children to a new park here in town that has an awesome playground.
Not wanting to be unarmed, but then again not wanting to carry anything at all, I slipped the BG in the pocket, 2 spare mags in the opposite pocket, and off we go.

For the entire weekend, I have chosen to go light, around the house and little excursions away from home. The 380 is perfect for me in this role.

Monday morning, it’s back to the 1911. Everything has a role to play, and my life is not one constant state readiness.
 

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I carry a .45 at times because I know what it feels like to stare down a .45 muzzle. I also carry a 9 mm because, well, it's a S&W 6906 and I love the gun. If I had a .380, I'd carry it also. Don't overthink caliber capability. They all succeed; they all fail. A miss with any of them is still just a miss.
 

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I do own a 380 (Glock 42) and while it's not my first choice for concealed carry (usually G27 or SP101) all the time, its size has its advantages. The G42 is small enough to conceal very well but big enough to shoot very well, unlike many small 380's. There are decent 380 loads out there and even still, I'm not crazy about 380 ACP ballistics but that being said, the 380 ACP has put a lot of people in the ground so there is some truth to the idea that we often overthink caliber effectiveness.
 

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A Norwegian man was killed Tuesday night after trying to give his father-in-law—an armed Florida homeowner—a birthday surprise. Police say 37-year-old Christopher Bergan flew in from Norway to surprise Richard Dennis on his 61st birthday. He knocked on Dennis' back door in the Pensacola suburb of Gulf Breeze at around 11:30pm then jumped out from bushes to surprise him, the Pensacola News Journal reports. Dennis, however, had earlier argued with a relative who banged on the front door and answered his back door armed with a .380 semi-automatic firearm. Police say he fired at Bergan when he jumped out, instantly killing his son-in-law with a shot to the heart.
 

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4Wathers said:
A Norwegian man was killed Tuesday night after trying to give his father-in-law—an armed Florida homeowner—a birthday surprise. Police say 37-year-old Christopher Bergan flew in from Norway to surprise Richard Dennis on his 61st birthday. He knocked on Dennis' back door in the Pensacola suburb of Gulf Breeze at around 11:30pm then jumped out from bushes to surprise him, the Pensacola News Journal reports. Dennis, however, had earlier argued with a relative who banged on the front door and answered his back door armed with a .380 semi-automatic firearm. Police say he fired at Bergan when he jumped out, instantly killing his son-in-law with a shot to the heart.
I have a hunch this won't be considered a good shoot.
 

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- CCW holder is NOT 'military' OR 'police'
- we are regular good people with guns
- our requirements are statistically and practically different from military or law enforcement
- largest caliber theory in non-LEO situations is irrelevant, again talk to CITY cops who see dead people shot from 22s 32s and 380s ALL the time

- the best caliber is the one you have
- if anyone thinks a 22 is petting zoo, please, stand in front of a gun loaded with one.
- it will stop you just fine

- now FBI doing raids with 22's? not a good idea... but average CCW holders, dispite carrying guns, are not police, special agents, delta-force, space-force, 007, CIA or any other type of commando..


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Sorry, a 22 is completely inadequate for the task of a CCW self-defense pistol. The question isn't, does X caliber cause death, the question is how rapidly on average will X caliber cause incapacitation. The 22 lr in a handgun on average given a COM hit on average causes a slow death from blood loss but rarely causes immediate incapacitation. In the absence of statistical evidence, I think we'd agree that a 500 S&W given a COM hit on average causes immediate incapacitation. I think most would agree that there is probably a relationship such that everything in between those two extremities is on a more/less linear scale with regard to incapacitation speed. It gets very complex due to the number of variables but holding those variables constant, most would agree that at 357 RM falls in between, perhaps close to the middle, of those two extremities.

BTW, I've been on the receiving end of a 22, a guy tried to shoot me in the back, missed and hit my arm. The bullet penetrated the tricep, glanced off the bone and lodged in my bicep. Did it incapacitate me to any degree? No, but it did make me mad. Had that been a 500 S&W, it would have effectively removed my arm causing a significant incapacitation and quite possibly death due to blood loss.
A
 

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Sorry, a 22 is completely inadequate for the task of a CCW self-defense pistol.
An acquaintance of mine has a 30-round .22 pistol (and the authorizing license/certificate). Having fired it, I'd beg to differ!

But yes, you're speaking of a self-defense weapon suitable for the average human against bad guys who may very well be hopped up on one or more drugs. Ergo, even though the .22 has long been used as an assassination round, that's not in the same category at all as self-defense.

The question isn't, does X caliber cause death, the question is how rapidly on average will X caliber cause incapacitation.
Stopping power.

The 22 lr in a handgun on average given a COM hit on average causes a slow death from blood loss but rarely causes immediate incapacitation. In the absence of statistical evidence, I think we'd agree that a 500 S&W given a COM hit on average causes immediate incapacitation. I think most would agree that there is probably a relationship such that everything in between those two extremities is on a more/less linear scale with regard to incapacitation speed. It gets very complex due to the number of variables but holding those variables constant, most would agree that at 357 RM falls in between, perhaps close to the middle, of those two extremities.
Oh, I think it's a good deal closer to the 500 S&W than it is to a .22. After all, what's the difference between 0.2 seconds and 0.6 seconds? Hypothetical values, yes, but if the 357 takes three times longer to achieve the same result but the difference is less than half a second, when it would take minutes, if not hours from a 22, it's largely immaterial.

BTW, I've been on the receiving end of a 22, a guy tried to shoot me in the back, missed and hit my arm. The bullet penetrated the tricep, glanced off the bone and lodged in my bicep. Did it incapacitate me to any degree? No, but it did make me mad. Had that been a 500 S&W, it would have effectively removed my arm causing a significant incapacitation and quite possibly death due to blood loss.
A
Aye...
 

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What are your opinions on the .380 as your only round for self defense?
Meaning all by itself....Not as a back up to a larger caliber.

Rather than typing this all out i have found a article that is close to my feelings on it.
Not spot on but generally close....What says you?

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/is-the-380-acp-an-adequate-caliber-for-defensive-use
I think the 380 is a perfectly legit self defense round. Many generations have used it for the purpose, before the Internet came along and caused us to overthink it. Placement is key. Use what you have, and learn to use it well...whether it be 380 or a 45.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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.380+P is right between the power level of 9x18mm makarov and 9mm standard pressure (In fact longer barreled .380s with +P can have more muzzle energy than a 5" 1911 .45 acp 230gr military ball- 340fpe vs 330fpe). The difference in power level is sufficiently insignificant that whoever or whatever you shoot is never going to tell the difference.

I keep my beefed up* LCP 10th anniv model loaded with 8rds of Underwood .380+P xtreme defenders.

20200421_154610.jpg
It's hard to argue with a fully loaded handgun that holds 8rds of .380+P and weighs 13.3oz.


*13lb recoil spring, stainless frame/trigger pin kit, Mcarbo carbon steel high strength take down pin.
 

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It doesn't matter what our requirements are. If evidence suggests something else is better, regardless of mission or objective, we are allowed same.

It all boils down to shooting good with what you have, no?
I think I have that covered with my 13.3oz pocket rocket


Original LCP1, factory iron sights: 10yds, semi-rapid, offhand, federal hydrashok JHP


LCP 10th anniv, factory iron sights: 15yds, off hand, slow fire, 100gr jacketed flat nose

The LCP is capable of far more accuracy than it is given credit for.
 

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I saw a guy get shot in the thigh with a .45 acp 230gr FMJ at point blank range once, and it stopped inside his pants on the far side of his thigh.

Would a .380+P 100gr Buffalo Bore hard cast flat nose (45" of gel penetration) fired from a 160z 3.6" Browning 1911-380 @1200fps/340fpe energy penetrate any less? I seriously doubt it.
 
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