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Discussion Starter #1
I realize that this is going to stir up a "hornet's " nest but IMHO, the best CQ defensive long arm weapon a person can have is a 12 ga. pump shotgun.
1. Why a pump ??
A. reliability
B. Racking it home gets the "message" across.:comeandgetsome:
( I have a couple of Tshirts to prove it)
2. Why 12 ga. ??
A. @ 20 yd.s = 20" coverage ( think 9 - 30 cal)
B. Want better then use TAP ( I do ) @ 20 yd.s = 8"- 10"
3. What about recoil ?? Try using what I do = a "mercury compensator" Recoil = 20 ga.

Here is my personal choice
a Bennelli "Nova" with a mercury compensator ( note this an old pix, My gun now has a Extra capacity )



Puffer
 

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I'll try saying this as nice as I can, but...

What's your point in posting this? We have a myriad of discussions about close-quarters long arms, entire topics dedicated to it even. What does this discussion add that the previous ones haven't covered?


-B
 

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what...is this "spank the new guy night"?

Actually, I have been considering a Benelli Nova to add to the collection. But, I would have to have the option of 20 inch and 26 inch barrels...and mag tube plug for those times it followed me bird hunting. The 20 ga. would be o.k., but for all around purposes I would still have to go with the 12. Benelli makes some fine sg's, and really comfortable to shoot. They definately produce some nice tactical guns in their line-up.


surv
 

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Frankly I happen to agree, the 12 ga is tough to beat. The only draw back are:

1. Round Capacity
2. Size for use indoors
 

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The new guy is trying to join in by introducing a thread...give him a break. It's a valid topic he is briniging up. He even taught me about something I was not aware of with the "mercury compensator". Where do you get these, Puffer?
 

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I'm with you puffer, 12ga all the way. :yup:
Remington 870 for me, but the Benelli is a great gun.

+1 on the Pump, but for me the rationale is reliability, semi-auto shotguns can be more picky, but a pump will run every time.



I'll try saying this as nice as I can, but...
What's your point in posting this? We have a myriad of discussions about close-quarters long arms, entire topics dedicated to it even. What does this discussion add that the previous ones haven't covered?
-B
I'll try to say this nicely too...

A forum is designed to engage folks in a dialogue. Sure, many topics have been covered before, but the POINT is the interaction. Otherwise we could just close all threads and make it a library.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The new guy is trying to join in by introducing a thread...give him a break. It's a valid topic he is briniging up. He even taught me about something I was not aware of with the "mercury compensator". Where do you get these, Puffer?
Thank you Sir.

The "mercury compensator" is listed here ( "Nova Pump recoil reducer") Benelli Parts and Accessories | Magazine Limiter plugs, bolt handles, shim kits, gun locks, recoil reducers

They can be found or ordered, @ most dealers. They are not cheap, ( around $100.00 ) but IMHO, worth it. I hate recoil !! Over the years, the one thing I hated was "shotgun Tac exercises ( both as a LEO & Instructor )

Also, one of the "problems" that arrises in using a shot gun as a home defence weapon, is the recoil. While the male of the home may not have a prob. with a 12 ga ( 00 buck ), women @ others in the household often do. Quite offten, I have recommended "stepping down" to a 20 ga. or using "lighter" loads. But, IMHO, the "compensator" solves the prob. ( in most cases )

Puffer
 

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For CQB, I'll take a knife over a shotgun. Medium range, yup, shotgun it is.
 

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For CQB, I'll take a knife over a shotgun. Medium range, yup, shotgun it is.
I normally agree with you on most things...however i have a differing view on this.

I agree that in theory a knife is the best cqb weapon. However, in my limited LE and correctional training and experience, it is my belief that the majority of the populace do not know how to PROPERLY deploy a knife for self defense. Plus I hate getting cut. :gah: If you fight with a knife that is something you have to accept...you will probably get cut at some point during the altercation.

I would much rather use a shotgun to maintain distance if possible from the BG in my home. I also have an ASP baton I use and am much more comfortable with than a knife for Close Quarters. It also has been proven to have a psychologically deterring sound when deployed, such as a shotgun pump. Just a thought. I like my chances of surviving a beating more than a cut or stab wound, if it is taken from me.
 

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For CQB, I'll take a knife over a shotgun. Medium range, yup, shotgun it is.
With my training, close-quarters I would much prefer my pistol. Protecting a hallway, entry area across a room, or a courtyard type open area, though, and it'd be the 12ga shotgun every time.

Rem 870 Police (pump), 12ga, 14" heavy bbl, 5rd + rds on stock. Very reliable, durable, and capable enough inside ~25yds. Beyond that, give me cover and a way out.

Here's an alternative view of the shotgun, for CQB:

Top 5 Reasons You Should Not Use A Shotgun For "Zombie" Defense

Hollywood, not to the surprise of many, has distorted several facts with regards to zombie outbreaks and more importantly, the survival of such an outbreak. Of most importance is the best weapon for defense, which Hollywood would have you believe, is the shotgun. This my friends is a fallacy and could cost you your life. Keep reading for the top 5 reasons you should not use a shotgun for zombie defense.

There is no doubt that the shotgun is a great weapon. It is used widely by law enforcement, military, and even standard home defense. Shotguns are powerful and the mere loading of a round into a chamber produces a very distinct sound that says “something bad is about to happen”. Yet, many of the aspects of why a shotgun is utilized in standard defense do not apply to the undead, which is why the shotgun should not be the preferred method of anti-zombie weaponry.

1. Ammo Capacity

First, the shotgun is limited in the available ammunition it can store as well as the amount you can easily carry with you. The ability to go mobile at a moments notice is not just a convenience, but a critical aspect in surviving an uprising of the undead. Let’s take, for example, the Remington 870 which is common in law enforcement. With an extended magazine, and stock suitable for storing shells, and side saddle, you could carry anywhere from 10 – 20 rounds on and in the weapon at any given time.

2. Reloading ability

Scenario: You have been forced upstairs into your bonus room and the baracade holding back the zombie horde in your living room has pushed through. You begin emptying shotgun rounds at the undead as they make their way towards your position. Your shotgun runs out of ammo. For argument’s sake, let’s say you have no other weapon available*. The time it takes to reload a shotgun, under that amount of pressure, with what would presume to be a lethal dose of adrenaline running through your system, is too long to get back into the fight. A weapon where you can insert a new magazine and continue to fire is best.

*Safety Note: Having only one weapon is setting yourself up for failure. Having a handgun with several magazines is the best route. This should be in your Mobile Zombie Preparedness Kit

3. Rate of fire

The shotgun can really pump out rounds if you know how to handle it correctly. However, it is still not the fastest. In the above scenario, zombies are coming at you. You are backed into a corner and will more than likely take out as many as you can, unless you have to turn the gun on yourself first. In that scenario, or any other scenario, it can never hurt to have the ability to dispense rounds at a much faster rate than that of a shotgun.

4. Range & Power

A shotgun will knock you on your back; no doubt. But is that what is really needed with a zombie attack? Hollywood, in movies such as the Dawn of the Dead remake, would have you believe that one person can continually shell out round and round to stop the horde. Friends, take heed: you do not need to have knock-out power to stop the undead. You merely have to stop the brain. With that said, the power of a shotgun, might not be necessary. Also, other weapons can provide the same stopping power and allow you to stand further away from your target. Why get closer than you have to?

5. Ease of use

For those of you who have actually used a shotgun and put many rounds through it at once, you can attest that your shoulder and armpit area is sore, possibly bruised, after extended target practice. When in survival mode, the adrenaline will only carry you so far, but you will need all of your strength. A shotgun will only wear you down. It is not a traditionally light weapon, though there are some lighter options available. This is not the easiest weapon to tote around.

So what weapon is preferred?



We here at ZAC officially endorse the M-4 assault rifle (and variant models) as the best weapon for zombie defense. Sure, the price tag is higher and you cannot stroll down to the local Wal-Mart to get one. However, when it comes to your life, and the life of your family, friends, and loved ones, what is that worth? We could easily devote an entire discussion about this weapon over the shotgun. This weapon was selected because of it’s features along with the fact that you can still obtain one, even if it is not as easy of a process as purchasing a shotgun.

This model of weapon is superior to the shotgun for zombie defense. It addresses and solves all of the aforementioned issues and then some.

Stay informed. Stay safe. Stay alive.

Author: ZAC Admin
Submitted: 02 Nov 2007
Filed under: Home Defense & Mobile Defense & Safety & Safety Council
 

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For CQB, I'll take a knife over a shotgun. Medium range, yup, shotgun it is.
SIXTO,

You were on a roll! Then you come back with this? Just when I have been in total agreement with you lately, you bust out the knife comment! hahaha :smile:

Let me ask you this, what if the other guy has a gun? Ever heard the old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight?
 

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Let me ask you this, what if the other guy has a gun? Ever heard the old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight?
How fast do you think someone can go from spitting distance to grapple distance? How accurate are you shooting at a fast-moving target that close to you? How accurate are you while grappling, and possibly being cut/stabbed?


-B
 

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How fast do you think someone can go from spitting distance to grapple distance? How accurate are you shooting at a fast-moving target that close to you? How accurate are you while grappling, and possibly being cut/stabbed?


-B
BAC,

Though I might give way on other topics with regards to experience. CQC and grappling would be one that I know fairly well.

Keep in mind, I am answering in a home defense scenario in which I may be alerted by my dogs or other counter measures.

1.How fast do you think someone can go from spitting distance to grapple distance? Great question, but this is under the assumption that a person is blind sided. Weapons of any sort are at a disadvantage with that scenario and range. A person can cover ground very quickly no doubt, but not faster then I could shoot from the hip (if I can my eye on them). Most people would have a hard time grappling with me in a normal situation, but after taking a round almost anywhere on the body it would be even tougher.

2.How accurate are you shooting at a fast-moving target that close to you? Accuracy goes up if they are closing ground directly towards you, if they are moving side to side all the better, as I would have more time to squeeze off a couple rounds.

3.How accurate are you while grappling, and possibly being cut/stabbed? Very tough to answer, but I clearly think this affects the BG as well. How great are you with a knife when you are being shot at or shot? Most people would run for the hills. I do believe that there is a distance where you have to think about using a handgun differently with regards to possibly using it as a blunt weapon, and where true grappling skills take over.

Great Questions BAC, and it's something everyone should think about.
 

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SIXTO,

You were on a roll! Then you come back with this? Just when I have been in total agreement with you lately, you bust out the knife comment! hahaha :smile:

Let me ask you this, what if the other guy has a gun? Ever heard the old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight?
Stick around C hawk, you'll see soon enough sometimes I just like to stir the pot and shake up some good conversation. Those who have 'known' me around here for some time can pick up pretty easy when I'm playing devils advocate or not.

Knives have their place, but its not in a gun fight.:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Gentlemen, I beg your forbearance. The subject is CQ LONG ARMS. Admittedly, one may have to confront a punk with a knife ( in actuality it is a frequent occurrence ) & knowing how to deal with it is important. I have had to twice ( as an LEO ( a wife with a kitchen knife & a crazy out of nowhere )), in the past & I have the scars to prove it. If you confront me on the street today ( I am 68 years old ) you will see that I carry a "Stick"( either a staff or a cane ) & I know how to use them. ( yes I do carry a gun also )

This the brings back to LONG ARMS. If a Punk was prowling, then I would call 911 & prepare to confront him or them if they were so stupid to as to try to enter, they or him, would face my 12 ga. or at least my hand gun. Why not my SOCOM ??? "COLLATERAL DAMAGE. among other reasons. Note - this a draw back to using most rifles, with "stopping power" ( although some ammo will mitigate this problem )

If it were a "home invasion" & if I had the time or was in position to acquire my SG then .. If not then my ever present hand gun.

Puffer
 

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Stick around C hawk, you'll see soon enough sometimes I just like to stir the pot and shake up some good conversation. Those who have 'known' me around here for some time can pick up pretty easy when I'm playing devils advocate or not.

Knives have their place, but its not in a gun fight.:wink:
SIXTO,

I actually like your posts they are pretty thought provoking, but read my sig......
 

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Gentlemen, I beg your forbearance. The subject is CQ LONG ARMS. Admittedly, one may have to confront a punk with a knife ( in actuality it is a frequent occurrence ) & knowing how to deal with it is important. I have had to twice ( as an LEO ( a wife with a kitchen knife & a crazy out of nowhere )), in the past & I have the scars to prove it. If you confront me on the street today ( I am 68 years old ) you will see that I carry a "Stick"( either a staff or a cane ) & I know how to use them. ( yes I do carry a gun also )

This the brings back to LONG ARMS. If a Punk was prowling, then I would call 911 & prepare to confront him or them if they were so stupid to as to try to enter, they or him, would face my 12 ga. or at least my hand gun. Why not my SOCOM ??? "COLLATERAL DAMAGE. among other reasons. Note - this a draw back to using most rifles, with "stopping power" ( although some ammo will mitigate this problem )

If it were a "home invasion" & if I had the time or was in position to acquire my SG then .. If not then my ever present hand gun.

Puffer
Puffer,

Not fair, you lure us in with that title of your thread! haha that is pretty funny because I must admit that I didn't fully read the title.. :smile::smile:
 

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Puffer,

Not fair, you lure us in with that title of your thread! haha that is pretty funny because I must admit that I didn't fully read the title.. :smile::smile:
NOT FAIR :rolleyes: I thought the Marquess of Queensberry Rules did not apply. SORRY :rofl:

BTW, I will give you a "hint" = When you do your threat assessment, "Beware of "old Geezers" especially those who wear KILTS. :secruity:

Puffer
 
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