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This subject comes up fairly often. People start talking about J-frames. At some point someone brings up the point that modern Micro-9s give you a round with better stopping power and more ammo in the same size gun, and then they're off. One of these popped off in someone's training thread, and it was suggested this discussion shold go elsewhere. So that's now this thread. This thread should probably hang a round as a continuing venue for this discussion.

So to kick this off, I'm going to paste in a discussion from the other thread.

<snip>
The snub fills the role I have for a personal defensive firearm in ways that are more important to me than capacity or power factor.
Personally I trust the penetration characteristics of a 158 lswc bullet more than any light, fast bullet over a wider range of scenarios.
I responded....

Is that true any more? Maybe it once was, but I think that time has passed.

What role does a J-frame serve that something like a P365 doesn't, given that the latter the same size or or smaller in every dimension, and has twice the capacity. See the link below for size comparison.


And I'd trust either a 124 grain +p or 147 grain modern LE oriented hollow point (lets use HST for comparison) out of a 3-ish inch 9mm auto over a 158 grain +p LSWCHP any day of the week. Even in +P form, the .38 spl is hampered by it's low pressure restrictions.
 

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This subject comes up fairly often. People start talking about J-frames. At some point someone brings up the point that modern Micro-9s give you a round with better stopping power and more ammo in the same size gun, and then they're off. One of these popped off in someone's training thread, and it was suggested this discussion shold go elsewhere. So that's now this thread. This thread should probably hang a round as a continuing venue for this discussion.

So to kick this off, I'm going to paste in a discussion from the other thread.



I responded....

Is that true any more? Maybe it once was, but I think that time has passed.

What role does a J-frame serve that something like a P365 doesn't, given that the latter the same size or or smaller in every dimension, and has twice the capacity. See the link below for size comparison.


And I'd trust either a 124 grain +p or 147 grain modern LE oriented hollow point (lets use HST for comparison) out of a 3-ish inch 9mm auto over a 158 grain +p LSWCHP any day of the week. Even in +P form, the .38 spl is hampered by it's low pressure restrictions.
Well, I guess you could be right but, I like J-Frames. I carry Two daily. The NYPD reported success in stopping bad guys with 135g. Gold Dot 38+P in 2” and 4” Revolvers. That’s proof on the Street that the combination works. I can shoot the combination pretty good so, works for me. I admit it’s not for everyone.
 

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While I’d rather have 9mm then a 38 special I find a small revolver easier to use then a micro 9mm auto. Some folks also prefer a revolver. It’s been my experience that small automatics are more temperamental to cleaning, ammunition, and grip. As for overall size it also doesn’t take into consideration things like grips circumference or a large hand having to worry about the slide reciprocating.

What I posted in the previous thread. I’ll add this no reason one is stuck with 38spl. A host of other calibers to fit everyone’s needs and or desires are available. 9mm/40s&w/357magnum/
22magnum/327Federal charter arms even chambers a 44special though not sure how much larger it is. Point being there are a multitude of calibers available if the revolver is your preferred whether that’s for one of the reasons I pointed out or simply preference.
 

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Its easier if I just cut and paste from the last thread:

Boy, how this has been answered a few thousand times but, this is a gun forum so here goes.
I can only answer for myself.
As a person who has carried just about everything as far as platforms for the last 26 years and now owns no semi autos I will go over the high points of revolver carry, specifically the j frame from my perspective.

I find a revolver much easier to conceal in my normal clothing and much more comfortable to conceal so that is a double negative for autos, even small ones, at least for me. No corners is a big advantage to me for all day carry.
I find the action on a revolver much less susceptible to user errors like limp wristing/hitting the slide release/pushed out of battery/etc. No I have never limp wristed an auto at the range but, I carry for up close and personal (hand to hand) attacks which is another plus for the revolver goes bang from inside a coat pocket or jammed into a belly. I can have hand on gun with nobody the wiser with coat or pants pocket carry and a revolver is much better suited to pocket carry, again, no sharp corners to clear. There is no faster draw than hand on gun and it looks a little strange to do that with strongside/ankle/appendix/shoulder or crossdraw carry. I put a lot of value in that first shot.

This is simply based on what I feel is a more likely event than an active shooter,long distance solution. We all have our own preparedness scenarios. More bullets does not delve very deeply into the individuals "whats better" question in my mind.
I can easily move a j frame around to different carry locations sans a holster which is not safe with a striker fired auto with a 5 pound trigger. With a 10 or 12 pound and long pull trigger I can carry in a pocket of a coat or Mexican carry without worrying about a holster.

The" floating gun" concept was made for the centennial j frame type gun. I find the round grip designed around a human hand instead of a square magazine much easier to get a firing grip on quickly weather its in a holster or on a night stand table. Plus even a crappy hurried grip under stress and it still goes bang. Try that with an auto.

Finally for me personally my wife is an excellent revolver shooter but, hates autos. It just makes sense for me to carry one and often two so I can arm her if needed.

I just find the j frame has tactical advantages that I find more value in than just more bullets. Others come to different conclusions based on what they find carries more value.

One more thought: In today's ammo market I don't have to vet every brand or style of ammo I might find to see if it "runs" in my gun. If it says 38 special on the box it runs.
 

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Well, I guess you could be right but, I like J-Frames. I carry Two daily. The NYPD reported success in stopping bad guys with 135g. Gold Dot 38+P in 2” and 4” Revolvers. That’s proof on the Street that the combination works. I can shoot the combination pretty good so, works for me. I admit it’s not for everyone.
I have two J’s. Neither of which did I purchase myself. One, an older Model 36 Chiefs Special, I inherited from my wife’s dad when he passed in 2010. The other I was given as a “tip” by one of my wealthier clients when I was actively teaching armed self defense and situational awareness back in Miami during the 1990’s. That’s a S&W M642 with a laser grip by CT. Aluminum frame, very lightweight. Kicks like a mule but it’s easier with the soft laser grips. The one from my wife’s dad has smooth wooden grips that hurt like the devil with full power or +P loads. I carried the M642 for a lot of years in the heat and humidity of South Florida from the early 1990’s until I picked up my Glock M27 which I carried for a good amount of time until I decided that the shorty-forty wasn’t for me. I did some carry time with a Ruger SP101 .357 magnum and then started to drift back to the 45 acp. I usually carried whatever I was shooting IDPA with at any given period of my life.
 

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Well, I was going to go all on about comparing my wife's SP-101 with her LC9. And then I realized that if I jammed the LC9 into someone's gut that was on top of me beating my brains in, it would probably get knocked out of battery and not fire. I think that the SP-101 would be more likely to fire in that same situation. 124gr. .357 at contact distance.
 

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Small j-frames are easier to conceal and pocket carry.

Curves v. angles.

Curves are better for me. Think about it. How do you like your women? Curvey or Angular? We all have preferences. I like the curves.
 

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My reasons for the j frame revolver preference;

Obviously, the small revolver has limitations. It is not as powerful as the 9mm in regular factory loadings.

But, for the purpose I carry and the way I use it, it excels in pocket carry. The heavier trigger and long stroke of the DA trigger give me added insurance when I’m drawing from the pocket because my finger is touching the trigger....not on the trigger, but touching the side of the trigger. This is not something I would do with a striker fired gun.
So for pocket carry, the revolver is king for me.

The strength of this method works in concert with situational awareness to work, otherwise it has no advantage other than deep concealment in a convenient, easy to carry method. However, I can draw and make hits at 3 yards on a point target such as the face in .50-.70 seconds on average. To my way of thinking this is a huge advantage.

I would be less hesitant to go balls to the wall for speed with a striker gun.

I have found smallish autoloaders to be finicky on ammo, and sensitive to grip, so they are generally less desirable than revolvers in that regard. A fight may not give one the opportunity to get a perfect grip.
There are no expensive little magazines to buy, or go bad, or to continually need to “ prove”.

The revolver is the ultimate CQB weapon, and can be stuck in the ribs and fired for effect without jamming, or fired in a pocket.

Ammo; how many people are having to curb their shooting practice because of 9mm ammo availability or pricing?
I am doing all the training and practice I want, because the brass doesn’t get lost and I can load good cast lead bullets, which are cheap and plentiful. I can shoot all I want, take my brass and load up more, and keep right on going.

Speaking of ammo and bullets; the autoloaders are finicky about bullet profiles, especially micro guns.

I can get 500 LSWC, 158 grain bullets, which have been proven to be effective, and use the same bullet for practice and carry. Total cost for the bullets? $37 plus shipping.
A 158 grain lswc can be counted on to bust thru bone and drive a straight line with more than enough penetration to access the vitals with a shot from any angle with a velocity of no more than 650 fps. And, since the short tube of a snub doesn’t give enough velocity with most bullets for reliable expansion anyway, it’s a moot point.

Additionally , I use the j frame as a floater. I can move it from one place to another on my body as my environment changes for the quickest access without the worry of unintentionally pulling the trigger.

And finally, the introduction of the micro 9’s have not really provided any significant advantages in the way I intend to use a pocketable gun...much the same way all of these new plastic guns have not really improved on the older style guns for the purposes of a concealed carrier.

The j frame revolver has been getting it done for a long time, and still can if you work to a degree of proficiency.
 

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Very few will argue, that short of a fixed blade knife, you'll be hard pressed to find a tool more suited to the role of a last ditch, bottom of the barrel, end of the line, concealable weapon than in a j frame centennial revolver. That alone gives it a very valuable role to fill in everyone's toolbox, even if you don't see or agree with other advantages that advocates will say it has.
 

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Compare measurements all you want, the practicality is the J frame is smaller. The measurements between an auto and revolver are like measuring banana and an apple. For me, the shape of the J frame makes it easier to conceal on my body.

Is that true any more? Maybe it once was, but I think that time has passed.

What role does a J-frame serve that something like a P365 doesn't, given that the latter the same size or or smaller in every dimension, and has twice the capacity. See the link below for size comparison.
1. You realize that small auto's by Browning among others predate the J frame, right? By a lot. The J frame was the answer to small autos.

2. Sure, modern 9mm is great ammo, better than it used to be. But why do you believe only 9mm has been 'modernized'? 38spl is better than it used to be too and has benefited from the same research and technology that 9mm has.

That's why it's still true. That time hasn't passed.

It's okay that you don't prefer them, carry whatever you want. Not sure why you need to make sure you feel that your choice is superior. It's not, it never will be. Its just your choice.
 

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I am not a fan of either one as a primary self-defense handgun. I only trust a snub-nose revolver in .38 special or a micro-nine as a bad-breath fighting distance last-ditch weapon.
 

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Why is everyone only talking about 38sp in j-frames? My most carried gun is a s&w340pd with .357mag. I shoot it much better than any pocket 9 I've shot. Its also easier for me to carry,especially around the house or quick run to the store in basketball shorts.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

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This subject comes up fairly often. People start talking about J-frames. At some point someone brings up the point that modern Micro-9s give you a round with better stopping power and more ammo in the same size gun, and then they're off. One of these popped off in someone's training thread, and it was suggested this discussion shold go elsewhere. So that's now this thread. This thread should probably hang a round as a continuing venue for this discussion.

So to kick this off, I'm going to paste in a discussion from the other thread.



I responded....

Is that true any more? Maybe it once was, but I think that time has passed.

What role does a J-frame serve that something like a P365 doesn't, given that the latter the same size or or smaller in every dimension, and has twice the capacity. See the link below for size comparison.


And I'd trust either a 124 grain +p or 147 grain modern LE oriented hollow point (lets use HST for comparison) out of a 3-ish inch 9mm auto over a 158 grain +p LSWCHP any day of the week. Even in +P form, the .38 spl is hampered by it's low pressure restrictions.

Your preference for 9mm is yours.

My preference for 38+P in a snub is mine.

I'm OK, you're OK. 😎
 

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I don't do small auto's, at all. My hands are so big they do not work. J frames, to me are BUG's or 2nd guns whatever vernacular you choose. I carry a LW commander as easy as anything else the majority of the time.

sig365g.jpg
 

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Any handgun that compels me to hold it “just so,” so that it does not squirm or shift in my hand, during the trigger stroke, is not something that I am going to want to carry, for defensive purposes. This is how many, if not most micro-nines fit me. A J-Frame, with ”boot” grips, has just enough of what it takes to remain reasonably stable, during the trigger stroke, in my hand.

Any handgun that compels me to contort my index finger “just so,” in order to fire accurately, is not something that I am going to want to carry, for defensive purposes. This eliminates many micro-nines from my consideration. When firing a J-Frame, I need not do any extraordinary contortions with my trigger finger, to properly engage the face of the trigger for a steady press.

So, a J-snub is structurally better than a micro-nine, for me to shoot acceptably well. Others’ hands, and others’ needs, may vary. This is before we consider the differences in ammo performance, or which one is easier to draw from a pocket holster, or which one is more likely to fire, if pressed against the body of an attacker.

Then, the revolver wins the functional-reliability factor, especially in my case. My right hand, or, specifically, my right thumb, ring finger, and little finger, do not always do what my brain wants them to do. I can get limp-wrist/numb-thumb/loose-grip malfunctions with many auto-loaders, when firing right-handed. And, if shooting left-handed, my gimpy right hand does not do a very good job of running a small slide.

So, for me, micro-nines have no value. I can ignore the whole category.
 

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My EDC gun is a Shadow Systems MR918, its replaced the Glock 19 that has been my primary EDC gun since I switched to it in 2005 (before that I was carrying SIG DA/SA pistols on & off duty - different guns, but all DA/SA models). I am able to carry my 918 on me everywhere I go nowadays (even when travelling to mag restricted states - the 10 round Glock or Magpul mags make the journey).

Only on a handful or so occasions during the year do I need a smaller gun. For those times the gun that fills that role is a S&W J frame. FOR ME, when I want or need a gun to go in a pocket (pants or outside pocket of winter coat), ankle holster, t-shirt/Superman carry mode, deep concealment "crotch" gun carry, fanny pack, or even holster-less "Mexican carry"; the J frame gets the nod. I find that the J frame is just better suited for those types of carry than any small semi-auto 9mm or .380. And if I decide to carry a BUG - the J frame is the one that I pick (I've only really carried a BUG during my on-duty status)

I have realized that I personally have no need for a small 9mm EDC gun, I have owned a few over the years, and have shot MANY more. I can shoot them just fine (but then, any good shooter should be able to shoot any gun good - shouldn't they?) but I just don't find myself needing them. My MR918 does the job for me and when needed, my J frame fills in.
 

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I don't do small auto's, at all. My hands are so big they do not work. J frames, to me are BUG's or 2nd guns whatever vernacular you choose. I carry a LW commander as easy as anything else the majority of the time.

View attachment 353793
Looks like you pulled that out of a Cracker Jack box!
 
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