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The thread on ''how many shots'' prompted this - which is really only an extension.

We talk about dealing with a threat and the BG ''going down'' - but to have the bad guy on the deck is not a guarantee of an end to hostilities.

If say two or three shots put him down but they are far from catastrophic, it is very likely he will continue to try and shoot, even from that position. I can well imagine, that if we took a hit and fell, we would with all ability we could muster, still be trying to return fire.

I still find the imagined judgement of when enough is enough to be worrysome. Maybe most because if the guy is down and we are still shooting (even justifiably) then ballistic analysis after the event could well prove as much - and then what legal hassles do we imagine!

That said, if we are still receiving incoming we have no option but to continue shooting, to end things positively. After all, we have to accept that a handgun is no magic wand many times.

So - forget hit count assessment - the deal here is knowing when to stop. Too soon and we may be dogmeat. Too late and imagine the sequele!

Circumstances alter events of course and no one situation will be like another - being in near dark adds another perspective too.
 

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Another good perspective. If after BG is down would verbal commands to drop gun help? Of course if still recieving incoming you would have no choice but to return fire, but maybe verbal commands might end BG's idea of continuing.
 

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What's one reflex that some CCWers do? Drop to a knee and assume a kneeling shooting position to make a smaller target???

Consider this an option for the BG as well.
 

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Good point jar - yet another aspect possible.

Much I think is deciding on assessment factors - cessation of incoming? Or a certain judgement that all movement has ceased?

Would one of us even, if pushed, resort to ''playing possum'' to gain a fraction of time before resuming.? BG could do same - some ploy or other - all making the decision still potentially very tricky.

I can hear a judge - ''but why were you still shooting into a corpse''?
 

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Dropping to a kneeling postition is only a viable tactic if you are using a longarm and the BG is aways off. In a real shootout thats up close and nasty you wont have the time.

We've tried it in training using Simunitions. What happens is that most of the shots will hit you in the head/upperchest area where as standing the shots can hit anywhere.

I dont know about you, but from what Ive seen I'll take my chances standing up. I used to think that standing sideways presents a smaller target, but what it does for an LEO wearing armour is present less armour to the front, and exposes more body to a shot. It took me awhile to get ouit of the habit, but after having several hits to my arms and the side gap in the armour it made a believer out of me.

If not wearing amour, I think that sideways in a miodified Weaver position is good. The smaller the target the better. Your supporting arm can serve to cover your vitals. In a pistol battle there is a chance that your arm bones can deflect a bullet or absorb it.Not a great scenario, but it could be the difference of surviving or not.

Verbal comumications,even if ignored,is a good thing from a lawyer perspective. Bystanders can testify that you did all that you could to prevent the shoot.

Another tactic is to constantly move, when assessing a situation to always move to the behind the head of the BG. IF he is laying on the ground and you are uncertain as to his intentions, move to his back and force him to turn to engage you. This will give you the advantage of angle and give you a precious second or two to your advantage.
 

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My answer is simple in any situation of that type.

"I shot until the threat ceased. I'm sorry you don't agree with my perception of when the threat ceased to be one, but you weren't there."

Forensics in most cases are going to have a hard time telling the real sequence of events - let's say I shoot 15 times. Out of a Sig 226 at average stressed-out speeds with one assailant, that's less than three seconds. Are they falling? Are they still firing? Are they still a threat? Ask me again in five seconds once I'm done reloading. :)
 

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Here,we practice with a man size target laid flat on the ground.(careful for da bouncin' bullets) we train to walk a slow circle around "him" and if he is a threat we shoot. I have found it somewhat harder than expected to place your shots in a flat/prone target. We also have it somewhat planned out what we will say to the BG. We also found it difficult to make the decision when to shoot when the BG is on the ground. ESPECIALLY if the BG is almost,kinda,maybe,a threat.--------
 

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Remaining Deadly Threat Assessment

If the BG is wounded (mortally or otherwise) and on the ground the wise "defensive shooter" had better not continue to fire UNLESS that BG is still actively posing a continued deadly threat from that prone position.

The BG had better be either reaching for his firearm or continuing to shoot from his prone position.

That would NOT include him just moving.
He may be convulsively moving or he may just be moving due to his previously sustained bullet/bullets injury.
If you shoot him while he is "Down For The Count" and just moving...then you are going to be accused of delivering a finishing execution shot.
And then...in my opinion you will have crossed that fine line of Shooting To Stop as VS Shooting To Kill.

If you shoot that BG while he is on the ground & only moving then Forensics will tighten a noose right around your neck.
They will be able to determine if he actually fired from that position or not.

If you are a Civilian and the BG gets up & his firearm is still on the ground then you had better not shoot him again either...unless he starts to either: "Come At You" or "Reaches For Another Hidden Weapon"

Civilian Self~Defensive Shooters are NOT Law Enforcement Personnel.
It is NOT a civilian obligation or duty to take the Bad Guy into custody - or to restrain him - or to administer medical assistance.

In Pennsylvania our "License To Carry A Firearm Concealed" is issued for the purpose of Self~Protection & to STOP an Immediate Deadly Threat to SELF and Family and/or Known Innocents.

I take that to mean that As Soon As we can Safely Exit The Danger Area...we are legally required/obligated to do so & then call the authorities.

It is also not our responsibility to run over and check his pulse or check to see if he is still breathing...or not.
It is our responsibility to END the Immediate Deadly Threat to our life/lives & then to retreat (as soon as is possible) to a location where the Police can be called.

In a public area like a mall it might be prudent to get behind safe cover & stick around in case the BG gets up with his weapon & wants to start going on a "shooting rampage" again - then (Of Course) he would need to be dealt with...again...with follow up shots IF Law Enforcement has not arrived on the scene YET.

Just my opinion on all of the above.
In my opinion Shooting To STOP does NOT mean Continue To Shoot Until The BG Stops Moving.
I take it to mean Continue To Shoot Until The BG No Longer Poses An Immediate Deadly Threat & There IS A Difference.
Gravely Wounded People Will Sometimes Tend To Move....the issue is:
Are They Still Moving Aggressively as a Realistically Perceived "Continued Deadly Threat" or NOT?
 

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Chris,

RSSZ makes a good point...next time I go to the woods to practice, I'm going to find something to be a target on the ground and wait until dusk/dark to do some shooting while walking around the target. It should be an interesting outcome...
 

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I agree, I am not there to shoot this person until they are not moving. If I am using my firearm I am protecting my life and the life of my family. I hope that I will be moving to cover and exiting as soon as possible.
 

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Good "verbal communications..."

HotGuns said:
Verbal comumications,even if ignored,is a good thing from a lawyer perspective. Bystanders can testify that you did all that you could to prevent the shoot.

Another tactic is to constantly move, when assessing a situation to always move to the behind the head of the BG. IF he is laying on the ground and you are uncertain as to his intentions, move to his back and force him to turn to engage you. This will give you the advantage of angle and give you a precious second or two to your advantage.
ROFLMAO! This brings to mind a story that happened to a buddy of mine, another NRA Instructor. He was giving a CCW class to a bunch of businessmen in the inner city years ago. On his way out of the building he was just putting his vcr in the trunk of his car when he sees these two "Bad Dudes" approach him from across the street in a pincers movement, from different but converging angles. They have knives in their hands and they are grinning wickedly.

Instantly, he backs up to the building right behind him (takes note of an elderly black woman waiting for the bus at the end of the next block) and pulls his snubnose 38 from his belly bag. as he is slowly raising it to a good two handed weaver position, he SMILES and begins to scream hysterically: PLEASE DEAR GOD....DON'T HURT ME! TAKE MY MONEY....BUT DON'T HURT ME!!!

Punks knew two things instantly:

#1 Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

#2 They were but mere seconds from death and the wily old white guy was going to walk scott free after the folks in hearing distance (old lady at bus stop) testified as to how they heard this poor man begging for his life and then they heard a shot....
 

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QKShooter said:
That would NOT include him just moving.
He may be convulsively moving or he may just be moving due to his previously sustained bullet/bullets injury.

If you are a Civilian and the BG gets up & his firearm is still on the ground then you had better not shoot him again either...unless he starts to either: "Come At You" or "Reaches For Another Hidden Weapon"
In a public area like a mall it might be prudent to get behind safe cover & stick around in case the BG gets up with his weapon & wants to start going on a "shooting rampage" again - then (Of Course) he would need to be dealt with...again...with follow up shots IF Law Enforcement has not arrived on the scene YET.

Just my opinion on all of the above.
In my opinion Shooting To STOP does NOT mean Continue To Shoot Until The BG Stops Moving.
I take it to mean Continue To Shoot Until The BG No Longer Poses An Immediate Deadly Threat & There IS A Difference.
Gravely Wounded People Will Sometimes Tend To Move....the issue is:
Are They Still Moving Aggressively as a Realistically Perceived "Continued Deadly Threat" or NOT?
I see where you're coming from, but.... frankly, if you have rounds in your weapon, after a deadly force encounter, you weren't firing fast enough, or were not truly "in fear". I've seen people shot, and post-shooting: when force is applied correctly, either the perp runs away with a few injuries, or they "make a stand" and DRT. No coups de grais, but unless you see their weapon at your feet, and their hands are in plain sight you are still in danger. Hands out of sight=lethal intent.

ie. "gravely wounded", is still dangerous.
 

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LMAO @ ExSoldier762'S example now that ol boy had all his ducks in a row , personaly as stated i will shoot till BG goes down , assess the situation , re apply a$$hole repellant as needed . IMHO none of us want to kill anyone , nor do we desire to set at the police dept. waiting on a lawyer . With that being said a gunfight is still a fight , and folks have and do get back up . It really doesnt matter once the shooting starts proper course is to shoot em down , take cover if you can , and follow police instructions when they arrive . Make NO statements at that time other than required communication ( responding to instructions and identifying yourself ). Anything you have to say is better said thro a good mouthpiece you will be shook up and can under stress and shock say things that will haunt you as the investigation progresses even in the best of shoots. I once asked a 70 yr old man why he shot another 7 times ( was a ruger .22 auto ) and he responded " That S.O.B. was trying to steal my woman . " he failed to mention that the " SOB " was 25 yrs his junior and in the process of ripping the locked screen door off the hinges at the time . it all worked out for the old man , the suspect ran off about 315 grains heavyer and was later tracked to a hospital about 130 miles away where i served the arrest warrent on him . just my .02 and sorry for getting a bit off topic
 

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Don't know about you guys,but i can think of a bunch of ways that a BG could be a very real threat(with a firearm)while in the prone position or on his back. For me.......I will continue to move around the threat to access the situation. I will not turn my back on the BG if at all possible. While moving in a circle I will continue to look for other threats. I will not leave the BG unless I have made every attempt to ensure that he will not be a threat, not only to myself, but to innocent bystanders.I will not continue to take action (deadly force) against the BG if I do not feel that he is any longer a threat to me or other innocents. As long as I feel that the BG has the means to do me harm I will try to protect my life and the lives of the people around me. Immediately after the threat has ended I will be very traumatized by the BG for having MADE me take that sort of action. He had no right to traumatize me in that manner. I handled the situation the only way that I could. I feel very sorry and hurt. My heart goes out to his family. They need to realize that it was HIS decission. He could have chose otherwise.--------
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thx for some good input - as ever good to hear individual views.
 

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In a nutshell,we all need to practice every worse case scenerio that we can think of while realizing that we can't be prepared for EVERYTHING. I am lucky here, as in Maine,in that we have a very large wooded area that we can use for a training area. We also have a very good range close by. We train hard(for old guys),we get dirty,we get wet,we are not affraid to put our weapons in the dirt and water(keeping safety in mind). We have fun and learn. That is the two main things that we want out of a training session.-----
 

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"You can blow off a limb, and it's still 86% combat effective. Here's a tip. Aim for the nerve stem, and put them down for goood..."

"Would you like to know more?"



:D:D
 

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nerve stem

Rezin said:
"You can blow off a limb, and it's still 86% combat effective. Here's a tip. Aim for the nerve stem, and put them down for goood..."
You mean that little bit of brain at the base of the cerebral cortex that's about the size of a nickel? The only sure path to which (from the front) is thru the mouth and hoping you have a flat bullet path without obstructions or variations in angle?
 

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ExSoldier762 said:
PLEASE DEAR GOD....DON'T HURT ME! TAKE MY MONEY....BUT DON'T HURT ME!!!

..
I like this idea. It'd likely save some time on investigation. Kinda draw the sympathy card.

If there were more people around, closer than 1/2 block. I'd simply resort to STOP! Don't come any closer! That sort of stuff.

Remember, 21ft. is 21ft.
 
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