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Discussion Starter #1
I've seen the discussion come up many times in this forum, most recently in a thread I started. In the interests of keeping other threads from going off of the stated subjects, I think this might be a good place to redirect such discussion (if this is a disaster, I trust the mods to make this thread go away). It isn't a matter of not wanting to discuss the subject, just a matter of not wanting to divert from the stated subjects in other threads. So, keeping in mind...

From the stickies:

When we originally opened this forum, I added a notation that this was not the place to "debate the virtues of open carry", essentially making it a protected forum. I have, since then, debated whether this was the right thing to do since we did not place any restrictions on other forums.

Open carry is a controversial subject, particularly when those that do OC do so specifically to garner attention to the practice. While we still discourage arguments over this topic, we will no longer offer "protection" for those who's practices invoke controversy. We now all stand on even ground but we will not hesitate to issue infractions for those that cross the line in comments and rebuttals.

If you can accept these changes, we will continue to welcome you to this forum. If not, there is another forum out there that may be more to your liking....
And

While our policy has been changed and we now encourage the posting of threads regarding open carry, we will continue enforcing our rules regarding civility within the forum. This forum will not allow the endless debate of "us vs them". We are all gun owners that believe in the right to carry, either openly or concealed and it's time that we start understanding that we are all on the same side. We are all responsible gun owners that follow the law whether we agree with them or not
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Separate from all the common issues involving the mode of carry, I choose to OC when the temperature and humidity both exceed 80.

I choose to CC in the rain, to keep my gear dry.

Sometimes I have to choose which of these is most important to me at the moment...

OC is common in the rural area where I live, especially when summer arrives.

My SA is different depending on mode of carry, but in general do not feel one mode of carry is inherently better than the other.
 

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I conceal my weapon from the public just like I *try* to conceal other things about me.
You don't know because you don't need to know.

I support others' choice to OC.
 

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Open carry for me is strictly a matter of convenience. If I've got a cover shirt on, I conceal. If not, it's open carry. I conceal in certain places as to not draw attention. I'm not going to get dragged into a debate on the merits or downside of either.

I predict a short life to this thread.
 

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OC always seems to boil down to all sorts of thing other than self defense. I do not carry a firearm for any other reason than lawful self defense. I see self defense as a very broad and ongoing tactic filled with constantly varying circumstances. If I felt that OC would generally foster a greater advantage in varying circumstance over CC I would partake but honestly, I dont. People always seem to imagine every potential encounter with a criminal to be one where the criminal is aware of the OCer well before any overt action occurs. They imagine a circumstance where someone spots their firearm and simply aborts criminal action. I will concede that this type of scenario can and has occurred but that is one very specific set of circumstances. What of all the other circumstances where the criminal only becomes aware of the OCer [after] overt action has occurred? Is OC still a benefit? If bad deeds are occurring and you are now realized as the greatest potential threat in the room.. is OC still a benefit? Its not always a bad guy in the bushes type of scenario. To broadcast to every casual observer that you are armed, where and by what means is a whole lot of information to just give away. Firearms are not talismans and a projection of strength starts from within.. not what is on your hip

Open Carry (disambiguation)? From a previous thread in this forum:

Open Carry (OC) is often said to be a deterrent due to the implication that the carrier will likely fight thereby dissuading a potential attacker from selecting them or someone nearby, as a target. If looking at OC as a possible deterrent to [armed criminal violence] in the simplest terms, the badguy(BG) may: realize the OCer before any overt action has occured, after overt action has begun, while overt action continues, after overt action has stopped, during escape or perhaps not at all. In only (1) of those situations is the OCer likely to be recognized as a threat and still be easily avoided by aborting criminal action. In all the other points in time, the threat posed by the OCer is qualified and likely requires the BG to respond to it in some way. How do we know "when" the bad guy is going to realize the OC citizen? We simply do not know.. and that aspect is very important as any obvious deterrent offered by Open Carry can narrowly hinge on a very specific set of circumstances coming into alignment all at the same time. Can Open Carry of a firearm be a deterrent? Sure. Can it also highlight the OCer as the most obvious threat in the room against a backdrop of seemingly unarmed people? Sure. Determining if this condition is good or bad greatly depends on what is happening or has happened. Again, if we look at criminal violence as a segmented event made up of several likely points in time where the BG can become aware of the armed citizen, open carry within the context of this example is still 4 to 1 against the obvious deterrent.

If you consider that the violent predatory criminal is not likely to share the same morals, values or motivation that I do, he is not likely to behave or weigh circumstances in the same way that I would. Most violent crime is unreasonable on its face when considering risk vs gain vs consequence and those who deal in criminal violence can be abjectly unreasonable. Compounding issues like drug addiction, mental illness or a well formed contempt for ones fellow man only makes the effort to profile or predict behavior much more difficult. Generally speaking, I am inclined to believe that the violent predatory criminal would be more likely to respond aggressively toward an imminent threat- than not. The prediction is a roll of the dice and ultimately that is where we find ourselves.

My decision to conceal carry and avoid OC is based purely on my belief that CC helps foster a greater advantage against the violent criminal in more [varying] circumstances. If my weapon is concealed, I can likely decide when to act if at all. I may not be afforded that option if I am obviously the greatest threat to the [active] criminal and he has noticed my weapon. When considering mode of carry, I ask myself the following: Do I want to broadcast the fact that I am armed, where and by what means? Do I want to broadcast that information to every casual observer that I happen to encounter? Speaking just for myself and in my own unique set of circumstances, my answer is no, heck No.

On occasion, people have asked me- “is it smart to OC”? Honestly I do not see it in terms of smart or dumb but more as a risk assessment. I think that Open Carry is riskier when considering personal self-defense as a broad ongoing tactic. As I have always said though, I support a person’s right to choose OC as a mode of carry where legal. OC simply does not work with my self-defense methodology. Those who are proponents seem to focus narrowly on one kind of scenario and ignore or scoff at the rest. Proper analysis of risk requires a person to be intellectually honest about the possibilities and form opinions without bias. Many people feel many different things about Open Carry and my thoughts and considerations are merely one way. I will say that my decision to CC is not based on emotion, politics, activism or any other influences unrelated to my personal safety. I do not post my thoughts with the intent of trying to convince others to change their ways but only to offer some food for thought to those who may be on the fence in regards to their mode of carry
 

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OC always seems to boil down to all sorts of thing other than self defense. I do not carry a firearm for any other reason than lawful self defense. I see self defense as a very broad and ongoing tactic filled with constantly varying circumstances. If I felt that OC would generally foster a greater advantage in varying circumstance over CC I would partake but honestly, I dont. People always seem to imagine every potential encounter with a criminal to be one where the criminal is aware of the OCer well before any overt action occurs. They imagine a circumstance where someone spots their firearm and simply aborts criminal action. I will concede that this type of scenario can and has occurred but that is one very specific set of circumstances. What of all the other circumstances where the criminal only becomes aware of the OCer [after] overt action has occurred? Is OC still a benefit? If bad deeds are occurring and you are now realized as the greatest potential threat in the room.. is OC still a benefit? Its not always a bad guy in the bushes type of scenario. To broadcast to every casual observer that you are armed, where and by what means is a whole lot of information to just give away. Firearms are not talismans and a projection of strength starts from within.. not what is on your hip

Open Carry (disambiguation)? From a previous thread in this forum:

Open Carry (OC) is often said to be a deterrent due to the implication that the carrier will likely fight thereby dissuading a potential attacker from selecting them or someone nearby, as a target. If looking at OC as a possible deterrent to [armed criminal violence] in the simplest terms, the badguy(BG) may: realize the OCer before any overt action has occured, after overt action has begun, while overt action continues, after overt action has stopped, during escape or perhaps not at all. In only (1) of those situations is the OCer likely to be recognized as a threat and still be easily avoided by aborting criminal action. In all the other points in time, the threat posed by the OCer is qualified and likely requires the BG to respond to it in some way. How do we know "when" the bad guy is going to realize the OC citizen? We simply do not know.. and that aspect is very important as any obvious deterrent offered by Open Carry can narrowly hinge on a very specific set of circumstances coming into alignment all at the same time. Can Open Carry of a firearm be a deterrent? Sure. Can it also highlight the OCer as the most obvious threat in the room against a backdrop of seemingly unarmed people? Sure. Determining if this condition is good or bad greatly depends on what is happening or has happened. Again, if we look at criminal violence as a segmented event made up of several likely points in time where the BG can become aware of the armed citizen, open carry within the context of this example is still 4 to 1 against the obvious deterrent.

If you consider that the violent predatory criminal is not likely to share the same morals, values or motivation that I do, he is not likely to behave or weigh circumstances in the same way that I would. Most violent crime is unreasonable on its face when considering risk vs gain vs consequence and those who deal in criminal violence can be abjectly unreasonable. Compounding issues like drug addiction, mental illness or a well formed contempt for ones fellow man only makes the effort to profile or predict behavior much more difficult. Generally speaking, I am inclined to believe that the violent predatory criminal would be more likely to respond aggressively toward an imminent threat- than not. The prediction is a roll of the dice and ultimately that is where we find ourselves.

My decision to conceal carry and avoid OC is based purely on my belief that CC helps foster a greater advantage against the violent criminal in more [varying] circumstances. If my weapon is concealed, I can likely decide when to act if at all. I may not be afforded that option if I am obviously the greatest threat to the [active] criminal and he has noticed my weapon. When considering mode of carry, I ask myself the following: Do I want to broadcast the fact that I am armed, where and by what means? Do I want to broadcast that information to every casual observer that I happen to encounter? Speaking just for myself and in my own unique set of circumstances, my answer is no, heck No.

On occasion, people have asked me- “is it smart to OC”? Honestly I do not see it in terms of smart or dumb but more as a risk assessment. I think that Open Carry is riskier when considering personal self-defense as a broad ongoing tactic. As I have always said though, I support a person’s right to choose OC as a mode of carry where legal. OC simply does not work with my self-defense methodology. Those who are proponents seem to focus narrowly on one kind of scenario and ignore or scoff at the rest. Proper analysis of risk requires a person to be intellectually honest about the possibilities and form opinions without bias. Many people feel many different things about Open Carry and my thoughts and considerations are merely one way. I will say that my decision to CC is not based on emotion, politics, activism or any other influences unrelated to my personal safety. I do not post my thoughts with the intent of trying to convince others to change their ways but only to offer some food for thought to those who may be on the fence in regards to their mode of carry
I really do respect this answer. It's a very valid argument
 

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I open carried for many years when I lived in Arizona (Phoenix metro area, not out in the boonies). Never had an issue or incident.
I have now conceal carried for a year or so, with no issues or incident.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

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In my mind, the OC versus CC debate, or CC versus OC debate, is just like the following rhetorical question:

Which would you prefer to be able to do, if you could, and why:

Fly without any aids; or

Have X Ray vision​

Many answers will be different, some silly, some serious, some well thought out, some not, some to satisfy prurient interests, others not.

Back to OC and CC, I do both, for many reasons.

I do, however, think this comment "OC always seems to boil down to all sorts of thing other than self defense" is a wee bit like assuming someone that wants Xray vision has impure reasons. I say that because self-defense takes many forms, and can involve short-term goals, long-term goals, as well as many other aspects of self defense, hence the exclusionary premise is clearly invalid.
 

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I do, however, think this comment "OC always seems to boil down to all sorts of thing other than self defense" is a wee bit like assuming someone that wants Xray vision has impure reasons.
I say that based on the fact that people overwhelmingly proclaim that they are OCing to change public perception, OCing to foster conversation about guns, OCing because of activism, OCing so they don't loose a right or OCing to foster firearms education. Many of those same people will also go to great lengths to discuss how their OCing effects others, their response toward them, the Police, Business owners, patrons and passerbys. Its simply an observation that OC discussions rarely examine how OC will help or hinder their self defense initiatives. I am simply taking people at their word and drawing what I believe to be a reasonable conclusion based on Socratic reasoning. I could be wrong

If this thread is going to be an honest debate about the potential advantages vs the potential perils, I am all in. If its going to be about emotion, mysticism or the proverbial odds ratio, I am out. In the absence of absolute empirical data, relative risk can be examined and debated based on commonly known or accepted factors which are typically highlighted through scenario development and common sense.
 

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MN issues a carry permit. Open of concealed. Most carry concealed. I really don't care what you do, unless you come on my property or are playing with a gun in public.

When I carry, it's concealed. As a natural born Minnesotan, I really don't want much attention in public.
 

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Honestly I dont see why there is a debate at all.
If you want to cc fine , do so. Most of us do at least part of the time.

Why OC rarely, or never folks feel the need to discouage OC simply because they are not comfortable with it, or feel it is any of their business is beyond me.

I OC alot, I cc also when needed.
To me there is no advantage or disadvantage to either other than less hassle and more hot weather comfort with OC.
Other than that theres little difference.
 

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I do OC occasionally. I also CC occasionally. Mostly since the law changed in Texas recently...I just sloppily CC. If I'm entering a 30.07 environment I will make sure it's covered, but everywhere else *shrug*...if someone sees it, oh well.
 

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I love to carry and it's always CC as I don't care to have others know. If I ever need to draw I want the element of surprise.
 

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Its simply an observation that OC discussions rarely examine how OC will help or hinder their self defense initiatives.
There might be a couple of interesting nuggets in this thread: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/open-carry-issues-discussions/253705-ocd-today-again.html

You need to define your parameters too - I'm not being dense, but self-defense could include enlisting others in a self-defense mind-set, e.g. a creating a neighborhood watch group, and using OC to prompt those discussions. Or self-defense in a longer term picture - creating community awareness of the need for self-defense by OC. If you don't categorize those as self-defense, there are others, ease of draw, environment (heat, humidity, others are OC).........

To be honest, why is this even a discussion? We/I don't come here to defend choices on carry, and in fact I CC more than I OC, but I just don't understand why you even care about the "motives" for OC, given it really doesn't matter? Again, I am not trying to stop this discussion, but I am curious:

Do you CC or OC? What amount of time do you spend doing either? After you honestly answer those, we'll see how and where this discussion moves forward.
 
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