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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the police response to active shooter incidents 2014.pdf

Written March 2014

Variations Found in Policies on Active Shooter Response --8

The Police Response to Active Shooter Incidents and Changes in Officer Training --16

“In all of the solo entries we identified where the scene was still hot, one-third of the police officers who made that solo entry were shot.”
—Prof. J. Pete Blair


We teach them that any time you have more than one officer who can go in, that’s always preferable to a single-officer entry. But we also teach them not to handcuff officers and say, “No, you have to stand outside and wait” when they know that kids are being murdered in a school—because while you’re waiting, people are being killed. And so there is that balancing act. There isn’t going to be a perfect solution. There’s not going to be a single one-size-fits-all policy. It’s going to come down to the officer on the scene being properly trained and properly equipped, and taking a moment to make the decision and say, “This is what I think is appropriate in this situation,” and then being prepared to act.
 

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http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the police response to active shooter incidents 2014.pdf

Written March 2014

Variations Found in Policies on Active Shooter Response --8

The Police Response to Active Shooter Incidents and Changes in Officer Training --16

“In all of the solo entries we identified where the scene was still hot, one-third of the police officers who made that solo entry were shot.”
—Prof. J. Pete Blair


We teach them that any time you have more than one officer who can go in, that’s always preferable to a single-officer entry. But we also teach them not to handcuff officers and say, “No, you have to stand outside and wait” when they know that kids are being murdered in a school—because while you’re waiting, people are being killed. And so there is that balancing act. There isn’t going to be a perfect solution. There’s not going to be a single one-size-fits-all policy. It’s going to come down to the officer on the scene being properly trained and properly equipped, and taking a moment to make the decision and say, “This is what I think is appropriate in this situation,” and then being prepared to act.
Gosh, where have I heard this before? :above3:
 

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Interesting statement for the anti CCW crowd...

What may be a little
bit surprising is the number of situations where the
people on scene subdue or shoot the attacker them-
selves. That’s what happened in nearly 40 percent of
all the incidents that were resolved before the police
arrived. I think that’s important for the discussion
about civilian response
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm guessing this has something to do with the posting you're doing in the Orlando thread?
More to do with others postings/opinions/mindset in the Orlando thread, not my own thoughts. Insight brings knowledge to anyone who may be interested in objective discourse not driven my emotions and misconceptions.

It includes insight and recommndations for first responder's as well as anyone who may be caught up in an active shooter scenario. Invaluable information from a professional organization may help members in their quest to understand the psychology behind responses for both.

Did you read the link? Do you have any opinion on the information contained within?
 

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http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the police response to active shooter incidents 2014.pdf

Written March 2014

Variations Found in Policies on Active Shooter Response --8

The Police Response to Active Shooter Incidents and Changes in Officer Training --16

“In all of the solo entries we identified where the scene was still hot, one-third of the police officers who made that solo entry were shot.”
–Prof. J. Pete Blair


We teach them that any time you have more than one officer who can go in, that’s always preferable to a single-officer entry. But we also teach them not to handcuff officers and say, “No, you have to stand outside and wait” when they know that kids are being murdered in a school–because while you’re waiting, people are being killed. And so there is that balancing act. There isn’t going to be a perfect solution. There’s not going to be a single one-size-fits-all policy. It’s going to come down to the officer on the scene being properly trained and properly equipped, and taking a moment to make the decision and say, “This is what I think is appropriate in this situation,” and then being prepared to act.


But that officer, having made the best decision in the situation that he finds himself/herself has to be backed to the hilt by their administrative authorities. Right is Right IMO, and there is no substitute.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
When one considers that 1/3 of one man responses end in the lone responder being shot, will those 20-30 who may be killed while waiting, still be killed/saved after the responder is shot and no longer effective at stopping the AS.

There's the balancing act they were speaking to IMO.
 

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When one considers that 1/3 of one man responses end in the lone responder being shot, will those 20-30 who may be killed while waiting, still be killed/saved after the responder is shot and no longer effective at stopping the AS.

There's the balancing act they were speaking to IMO.
Yep, your opinion. We all know about opinions.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
And your opinion is there's no balancing act to consider in these matters of responding to AS's? My only stated opinion here was what the authors/researchers meant by a balancing act.

In reality, every decision made is a balancing act between risk and reward.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/balancing-act?s=t

a situation requiring careful balancing of opposing groups, views, or activities: a delicate balancing act between Greek and Turkish interests
 

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This may ruffle feathers on both sides of the debate but so be it.
The average LEO is a human same as a citizen carrier.
He has a tad more equipment and a bit more training at accademy than average carrier but hes no robo cop. He may well be less proficent with firearms than alot of folks on this forum.

Being human , and not directly under attack LEOs are simply not going to charge in and be cannon fodder. They are going to go home at the end of the shift and anything that endangers that is going to be approached with caution. Simple human nature. Plus entering and dying inside the door helps nobody. They dont get paid enough to be suicidal or close to it by choice.

Trying to put the sense of urgency into someone outside not being fired on that say armed citizens inside fighting to survive isnt going to happen. It just isnt. And that isnt a LE critism.
Armed patrons at active shooter situations , if allowed to be armed everywhere, will stop these acts before LE is normally set up to enter.
The answer doesnt lie on the LE side of the equation.
It lies with armed citizens and abolishing GFZs
 

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And your opinion is there's no balancing act to consider in these matters of responding to AS's? My only stated opinion here was what the authors/researchers meant by a balancing act.

In reality, every decision made is a balancing act between risk and reward.

Balancing act | Define Balancing act at Dictionary.com

a situation requiring careful balancing of opposing groups, views, or activities: a delicate balancing act between Greek and Turkish interests
On that point we can agree. The rest we can agree to disagree. It is my belief the officer in question will be tormented for all of his days for his decision to stay safe while a madman wreaked havoc on so many defenseless souls. There is nothing but sadness in this whole affair.

I get shot as a young officer trying to save just one, and it turned out she was an awful person. My perspective is very different from someone without such an experience. I believed then and now that if you have a badge you are obligated to do your best.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
This may ruffle feathers on both sides of the debate but so be it.
The average LEO is a human same as a citizen carrier.
He has a tad more equipment and a bit more training at accademy than average carrier but hes no robo cop. He may well be less proficent with firearms than alot of folks on this forum.

Being human , and not directly under attack LEOs are simply not going to charge in and be cannon fodder. They are going to go home at the end of the shift and anything that endangers that is going to be approached with caution. Simple human nature. Plus entering and dying inside the door helps nobody. They dont get paid enough to be suicidal or close to it by choice.

Trying to put the sense of urgency into someone outside not being fired on that say armed citizens inside fighting to survive isnt going to happen. It just isnt. And that isnt a LE critism.
Armed patrons at active shooter situations , if allowed to be armed everywhere, will stop these acts before LE is normally set up to enter.
The answer doesnt lie on the LE side of the equation.
It lies with armed citizens and abolishing GFZs
That's about the best realistic and very astute observation as I've seen expressed anywhere on the subject sir. :hand10:
 

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I have to say that Ghost has the truth of it. Police are Reactive, not Proactive, and the reaction (with sufficient force to deal with the situation without any additional intelligence) is a first class challenge. Add to that the simple fact that "Let's be safe out there" is the mantra of most departments, and that officers with any experience know that going up against a man with a AR while you are armed with a Pistol is usually not a good thing to do.
We need to have modification on CCW rules in bars and other establishments globally. In Virginia, if you ain't drinking, you are not "illegal". Like a Designated Driver, a "Designated Sheepdog" exception should be made in bars and restaurants. The simple acceptance of "Sheepdog" behavior (or Porcupine behavior) would have brought this even to a Halt quickly and decisively. We need to encourage Lawmakers and others to see that "Honest and competent" people who are acting as "Designated" are the cure to the sort of problems we face today.
 

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This is an informational question, not making any judgment on anyone or in any direction...do many LEOs not have long guns in their cars? Is it likely that the initial officer did not have a rifle close by in his car? I don't know how close he was to his car. I'm just wondering if retrieving a rifle and re-engaging was ever an option.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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It is my belief the officer in question will be tormented for all of his days for his decision to stay safe while a madman wreaked havoc on so many defenseless souls.
Yep, your opinion. We all know about opinions.
 

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On that point we can agree. The rest we can agree to disagree. It is my belief the officer in question will be tormented for all of his days for his decision to stay safe while a madman wreaked havoc on so many defenseless souls. There is nothing but sadness in this whole affair.

I get shot as a young officer trying to save just one, and it turned out she was an awful person. My perspective is very different from someone without such an experience. I believed then and now that if you have a badge you are obligated to do your best.
I cant disagree with anything said here; but sometimes doing your best is not going all Die Hard. Every situation is different, every individual is different.

If I know I'm deficient in some manner to deal with whats going on, I'm not going. I'm not going to be a albatross on the situation. Flip side, if everything is a go and the calculated risk makes sense, of course I'm all in. From a outsider looking on these situations, its easy to point to cowardice etc., (which of course does exist) but when you understand the dynamics a little more, its likely a lot more things are going on than the arm chair quarterback looking on knows.
 
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