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Discussion Starter #1
I often wonder just how if something goes down, we can react fast - AND - stay aware of rule #4. It concerns me.

Practice all we can - hopefully to better increase fluidity, speed and above all accuracy. But, our need for speed must usually all but negate that small thinking time needed, to assess the target and what lies beyond.

The problems to be faced after even a good (legal) shoot, with a BG taken care of, pale into near insignificance if some innocent has been nailed during the engagement.

I can see no actual solution to this per se, other than us all being the most accurate shooters possible under stress but as we know, a sudden adrenaline dump on the scale we may experience, is not going to help too much in this department, as I see it.

Probably my other thought that comes to mind is the need for FOCUS - one of the factors I try and work on. That should assist with control and accuracy at least in part ... that brief period when all that counts is (efficiently) getting the job done.

Guess I should add the (obvious) need for good condition yellow such that maybe we are more aware of surroundings when something happens, but there is a limit to how much we can pre-plan moment by moment, every moment. Unless maybe we have transitioned briefly to orange then red - including in that short period an environmental assessment. This would or should also have hopefully included escape option assessment.

So - trawling not for solutions - just thoughts and input generally. I muse as so often!
 

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Not being an instructor, nor leo, nor even 'mall ninja' qualified, one of the ideas I have tried very hard to put into training is kneeling or going prone for a shot. This changes the angle to an upward trajectory, and hopefully, over anyone's head, should a clean miss occur. Now granted, this will not be a be all end all answere, as violent attacks are dynamic and the where's and how's are usually quite unpredictable, as well as the limiting action/reaction time factors But, by kneeling, it gives me some comfort in that not only is the round traveling upwards, I am now a smaller target, and more stable. And is just one more tool in the tool box.

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Dan, thanks for response.

I can see some logic in your thinking - up to a point. Not sure whether in fact time would permit the drop to kneel or crouch, tho I do shoot from these positions and am comfortable so doing. Just could be not always quite as fast to engage. That said you may well I expect, as I do - practice draw and drop low in one fluid motion - so perhaps I am being over pessimistic after all!

I am not sure either that the target presented is in fact smaller - well not in a good survival sense - as this position maybe concentrates oneself into an almost total COM target. That could well be open to debate.!

I agree entirely re the upward trajectory being highly desirable - well most times probably, as a safety measure.

This does give interesting food for thought anyways - just what I was looking for - stimulating input. Thank you.
 

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Some people will buckle under stress. Others won't.

In my own experiences in the wild, I'm worthless after the situation has resolved and things are back down to yellow or white- sometimes for a few minutes to a few hours. Until then, I'm OK.

Unfortunately, the only way to know is to dance with the devil, and quite frankly, it's not worth doing just to know.
 

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Shooting from a knee is a last ditch option for me. Making yourself a static target is not good IMO.

If you are in yellow before it goes down, you should already have an idea of the risks of shooting. When the time comes seeing a background innocent is probably no likely due to tunnel vision.

Part of playing the "what if" game. Good habit to get into. Where ever you are, ask yourself "what if" a BG started shooting at me here....

In reality, I don't think you can prevent any unfortunate collateral damage. If you could have foreseen it you would not have taken the chance most likely.

Maybe I'm not reading the post right though...?
 

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I also think about that alot.

I can only use .38 leadheads, or 9mm FMJ at work in Florida. Doesnt it strike you odd that a G licensed guard cant use hollowpoint ammo with a 9mm? Has the state of Florida ever heard of overpenitration? Did the guys form The 1907 Hague Convention make this law?
I would feel aufull if I have to discharge a 9mm FMJ into someones chest and hit a kid behind the BG. Thats why I use my GP-100 with .38's instead of my Block. Becides I figure a big stainless wheelgun would have more of a psycological impact. The BG doesnt have to know its only .38 ammo in the cylinder.

Im also concerened with a million other variables.
 

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Jim_Linch said:
Shooting from a knee is a last ditch option for me. Making yourself a static target is not good IMO.

In reality, I don't think you can prevent any unfortunate collateral damage. If you could have foreseen it you would not have taken the chance most likely.

Maybe I'm not reading the post right though...?
^+1. Shooting "up" is bad ju-ju. Your rounds go somewhere (hopefully into your target, but statistically some won't). If you have a multi-story mall, apartments, offices, anything similar around, your misses are flying way outta line. I may be wrong, but hitting someone on the second floor of Dillards would (to my mind) open you up to Public Endangerment, in addition to whatever else the DA might try for, since no firearms trainer I know of recommends using the sky as a backstop. (You may not see or have time to look for a backstop, but you are supposed to.) :wink:
 

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My 2 cents:

First, we kinda drifted from an excellent point - "Can we abide by rule #4 in a self-defense situation?" We hear the incidents where police officers shoot other police officers and innocents in the process of shooting the BG. Some are by misses, some are by bullets passing through the BG. I completely agree with P95Carry on his excellent points:

- ...react fast - AND - stay aware of rule #4

- ...thinking time needed, to assess the target and what lies beyond.

- The problems...pale into near insignificance if some innocent has been nailed during the engagement.

- I can see no actual solution to this per se...

I think P95Carry has pointed out some very real issues, very often trivialized or not even realized to begin with. I especially like his comments regarding the fact that we can train for speed and fluidity, but how does one train to face a life threatening situation where we may have tunnel vision and all sorts of other issues never experienced before.

Another issue that bothers me a lot, is that when we train, we can usually see where our shots hit and I'm pretty sure we make "corrections" to improve the hits. However, in a gunfight, it is likely that we won't be able to see where we hit due to motion, clothing, etc. and we really have to trust our technique and skill. We're basically shooting, but we can't see where we're hitting.

And another 2 cents concerning some good peripheral issues that were brought up. First, as much as I don't like it, I have finally accepted and firmly believe that self-defense is situation dependent. Meaning there is no one method technique that is best for all situations. For example, kneeling could be the best possible solution in a situation where there are people around and shooting "level" could greatly jepordize them, where shooting from a kneeling position would direct the bullet upward into a concrete building and away from the bystanders. But what if upward, would direct the bullet toward people on an open balcony, etc.?

Awareness and anticipation seem to be the universal solution to self-defense delimea. I know of no situation where awareness and anticipation would not be an advantage. As I walk and sit in public places, I try to look for solid backstops and "safe" lines of fire. But when the "event" goes down, we may have to respond instantly or die. We may not have time to even look at the background. Hence, as P95Carry said, "I can see no actual solution to this per se..." is very true.

Awareness, anticipation, training, and practice will ALWAYS help us, but they are not "the" solution, although they may improve our chances by increasing our awareness, anticipation, skill, and confidence.

Well done P95Carry - keep 'em coming!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Further thanks for some inspired input :smile:

As I said I did not expect a solution - to a problem which really cannot have one but - it sure is good to bat the thing around a bit and hear other's thoughts. We do I think (as ever) come back in the end to our awareness being the real key.

I often when driving - even more so on the bike - try and plan ''escape routes'', wondering where I can go and how, if some dufus is oncoming on my side of the road. Same thing here isn't it with rule #4 problems. Probably the best we can do is hope for that few milliseconds of extra analysis time thru our alertness, all the better to stand a chance of reducing collateral damage.
 

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In my (admittedly limited) experience, if one is alert, most situations develop slowly enough to remain aware of what/who is beyond your target. You do have to train and hone your awareness. That doesn't mean you can avoid putting them in line of fire. I think your concern is particularly valid in surprise situations. I worry about this most in malls and busy parking lots, where it doesn't matter where you aim, the potential for collateral damage is high. People talk about "combat accuracy" and "target accuracy" but I think accuracy and shot placement are key, for the reasons you brought up.
 

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rule #4

I remember being told by the instructor (a retired LEO) at a concealed carry class I attended that firing your weapon during a "situation" should ALWAYS be considered the option of last resort. Some of the reasons he gave have already been listed here but he also mentioned several from his own experiences during gunfights. He pointed out with particular emphasis the fact that if something can go wrong it probably will (Murphy's Law), stress is going to alter our perceptions and response time and, especially, the possibility of injuring innocent bystanders.

We, as gun owners and carriers, should use our weapons ONLY when a life is in imminent danger and only to protect that life. We should never fire our weapons - other than for practice or recreation - because we can, but because we must. I feel that by waiting until it's them or me before I fire my weapon, I've eliminated most of the argument that I acted recklessly by, literally, "jumping the gun". Plus by taking that extra time, I should better be able to assess the situation, my surroundings and any possible alternatives.

Some here will disagree and that's their right. Still, by following these recommendations, I will hopefully eliminate any collateral damage to the people I'm trying to protect. I'm not saying we should wait until we've already been fired upon or attacked before we react, but the reaction should be escalated by degrees to match the threat. I certainly wouldn't fire upon someone - or pull my weapon for that matter - simply because they're "in my face", but if they get physically violent and/or pull a weapon and threaten to use it, then I'll respond with what I think is the appropriate level of response.
 

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One of the things that I learned when I attended LFI was that in a situation where you are being charged, to shoot for the pelvis. It is faster since you don't have to bring the gun up to COM and in a charging situation shots to the COM are likely to only take him with you, while if you take out the support structure of the body (the pelvis) it will stop the attack cold. It an over penetration you are shooting at a 45 degree angle and the bullet will travel to the ground.
 

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ALERTNESS---ANTICIPATION---CHECK THEM OUT---SCAN YOUR SURROUNDINGS--- all these things I try to do when my environment changes. It is,as you know, changing constantly. I try to keep up. I guess that I never would get along with "some of the types" in the big cities. I scan everybody,up and down. I make it a point to make eye contact just to see how they will look back at me and/or react to my visual inspection of them. I can scan pretty quick so it's not as if I'm trying to stare them down. I want the advantage. You can pretty much tell if a person is up to no good as to how they walk,talk,move their arms,do they shuffel along? do they seem as they are trying to make/keep eye contact with one of their bud's / bro's ?? And of course-how are they dressed? What seems to give me trouble nowadays is the youths and young adults that are constantly tuggin' at their britches to hold them up or pull them up. I really take notice of an individual when they put their hands at their waist and act like they are "goin' for something". Oh well,guess that you can't shoot a person for trying to hold up their pants. Maybe it would be a plus for our side if they were trying to move and shoot and their pants fell down. If that happened ---would you just go ahead and shoot them ?? I think that I would if I wasn't laughing tooooooo hard.---------
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I have heard mixed opinion on pelvic shots.

Thing is, a handgun round may not necessarily either shatter bone or, find the femoral artery, so no guarantee of locomotive embarrassment or major bleed. I guess we could say that with a COM shot there are no guarantees either re taking out a vital organ satisfactorily.

I don't think either the speed factor difference is that significant. One could argue usefully perhaps that once a suitable point aim is achieved as gun coming up, start with first shot pelvis/lower abdomen and continue up for successive COM.

Somehow I doubt that ''in extremis'' - however much we have trained - we will consciously be targeting area specifics with quite the required precision - more an overall COM approach, with hopefully good hits and no misses.
 

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Ok, maybe some qualification of my response is in order. Again, I am NOT an instructor, nor am I leo (a big 'thanks' to the folks who perform this work), and I dont even rate as much of a mall ninja.
I also dont relay my point very well as my mind gets to moving ahead of my little fingers which are trying desperately to type before my thoughts elude them completely. When our poster first presented his ponderance, I had a picture in my mind of 'what if ' you are in a crowded restaurant with glass for windows and no real solid walls. In this matter, I still feel a kneeling shot gives one a better chance of hitting your target (stability) as well as countering an overpenetration, given the benefit of time and distance, as well as surprise. As a note, I should have mentioned that each situation is its own entity. No 2 shootings/firefights will EVER be the same. Also, rule #4 must be applied uniquely to its own situation. In the areas I travel, and recreate in, there are very, very few multi story dwellings to be concerned with a 2nd story bystander. Still, it is a consideration. Working to a better angle, which also hopefully provides cover/concealment, is also most desirable.
As others have mentioned, this is all last ditch. I still maintian this site is inhabited by good people who have no desire to discharge their firearms unless it is in the gravest of extremes. These folks have also shown a propensity to think logically, and provide a myriad of answeres, none of which can really be labled 'wrong' ...just 'improvable'.

Dan
 

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RSSZ- I Will Never Shoot For The Pelvis !! I will NEVER teach someone to shoot for the pelvis.------------

I betcha will if thats the only available 'part' of your target to shoot at.
 

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Ammo

P95Carry said:
The problems to be faced after even a good (legal) shoot, with a BG taken care of, pale into near insignificance if some innocent has been nailed during the engagement. So - trawling not for solutions - just thoughts and input generally. I muse as so often!
A tragedy might be avoided in proper ammo. This is why my primary mag is always stuffed with the .45 MagSafe 68gr Super SWAT and my backup mag is usually a more conventional JHP like the Hydra-Shok. I'm also toying with the RBCD load in the primary...but the jury is still out on them, for now. Use of a frangible will minimize the risk of the T-N-T (Thru-N-Thru) gunshot or a "miss and bounce" injuring a bystander.
 

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Duuuuude

gregarat said:
ExSoldier762,
Dude you should have a talk with the guys who make the G license laws.
I have been an armed guard here in Florida off and on since 1975, but not at all for the last 17 years. I've worked bodyguard details, and worked as a security supervisor for just about every major firm in the south Florida area.

The problem with giving rent-a-cops access to that kind of equipment is the number of OLDGUYS (REAAAAAL OLD) and incompetent police wannabes will ruin it for the few (of which you are one) good guards who have a legitimate need for such ammo. Although neither Glaser or MagSafe have ever lost a lawsuit where the sole problem was the AMMO, it would be much easier to attack the situation and personnel than the ammo.

When I supervised the night shift I would LRRP up to sleeping guards and drop a string of firecrackers right behind them and watch them mess their pants! IIRC, the only ammo allowable to guards is .38sp RNL. The NYPD used to call those "widow makers" for the cops that is! I sometimes think that the state mandates this ammo so that when a guard shoots an innocent bystander, it will give the maximum chance for survival of the victim.

My IN LAWS live in Lake City, FL, just up the road from Gainesville. I'm there at least twice a year.

Dude get out of the job and get into the police academy!
 
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