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The Second Amendment Crowd Is Responsible For Allowing Our Rights To Be Eroded

4K views 127 replies 35 participants last post by  PhotonGuy 
#1 ·
I hate to say this and probably many people on this forum will hate what Im about to say but I believe that much of why the 2nd Amendment has been infringed upon by the government has to do with the gun community. The gun community has allowed it. As hurtful as it might be, I believe that the truth of the matter is that the gun community is responsible for allowing much of the erosion of the 2A.
 
#32 ·
Well the 2nd Amendment has been eroded, spat on, and trashed at both federal and state levels. I blame the gun community for allowing it to happen since the gun community could've stopped it and I am by no means excluding myself from the gun community but I am talking about the gun community as a whole. We're in this together and if we're to stop the erosion of our gun rights we all have to play our part. It can't be some of us it has to be all of us.

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to give us, the common citizen, the means to overthrow the government should the government become oppressive. That's how the USA was formed, when the oppressive British government was overthrown by men with guns, namely George Washington and his army. The way our country is run is with checks and balances. At the federal level we have three main positions, the Congress, the President, and the Supreme court which all counter balance each other. She thing at the state and local levels, we have different positions all of which counter balance each other without any one person or any one branch having too much power. That is how we safeguard against corruption because any one person or any one branch having too much power would lead to corruption and could result in a dictatorship, which we don't want.

As it is there is going to be some corruption no matter what since any system of government is a system designed by man and anything that's designed by man is subject to error. At least with the system we've got though we can stop some corruption. But if all else fails the people should have a means to overthrow a corrupt government and that is what the 2nd Amendment is for, when all else fails and the government becomes oppressive the people can overthrow the oppressive government and take back the country.

The problem is, many people in the gun community, many gun owners, I don't believe would be a part of that. Lets say that here in the USA they passed the same kind of gun laws as what they've got in Japan. Now lets say as a result of passing such laws the government is going door to door and seizing all the guns. Many people would no doubt quietly turn in their guns. Quietly turning in your guns in such a situation is not overthrowing an oppressive government, its the opposite of overthrowing an oppressive government. So that's why I blame the gun community, because the put up with the erosion of gun rights and because many in the gun community would turn over their guns in the case of a door to door seizing of guns. Why do I think many people would quietly turn in their guns? Just look at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as an example.
 
#9 ·
You may be right.

Many gun owners think that background checks are OK...because they have been brainwashed all their lives to think that it actually keeps bad guy from owning guns.

Gun owners in states that "register " guns don't even realize that registration IS an infringement on the Second Amendment therefore illegal.

Lots of gun owners are OK with being limited to purchasing one gun every X number of days.

Gun OWners in 14 states all Red Flag Laws to be voted in, which assumes you are guilty of something, with no due process, and lets the state confiscate your guns until you prove your self innocent.

Lots of gun owners think that its ok to own a lever-action rifle, but that owning the media version of an "assault weapon" is a terrible thing.

Many gun owners don't know what an "infringement" is. Or the Second Amendment. Many of them can't even tell you the 3 branches of government. Many of them think the Civil War was actually fought over slavery. We aren't teaching history so we are doomed to repeat it.

Many gun owners, right here on this forum say..."no one needs a machine gun" without realizing that they NFA is blatantly unconstitutional and that when created, handguns were on the original list.

How is paying a 200 tax on an NFA weapon not an infringement? Getting fingerprinted like a common criminal and submitting mugshots constitutional?

Lots of gun owners are OK with letting the state charge you for your right to defend yourself with a concealed weapon. Lots of them don't approve of anyone carrying a gun without a state-issued permission slip.

So yes... when you say it is the fault of gun owners for over 20,000 anti-freedom laws on the books...

You are correct. There is no solidarity. The propaganda of the last 50 years has been very successful.
 
#11 · (Edited)
You may be right.

Many gun owners think that background checks are OK...because they have been brainwashed all their lives to think that it actually keeps bad guy from owning guns.

Gun owners in states that "register " guns don't even realize that registration IS an infringement on the Second Amendment therefore illegal.

Lots of gun owners are OK with being limited to purchasing one gun every X number of days.

Gun OWners in 14 states all Red Flag Laws to be voted in, which assumes you are guilty of something, with no due process, and lets the state confiscate your guns until you prove your self innocent.

Lots of gun owners think that its ok to own a lever-action rifle, but that owning the media version of an "assault weapon" is a terrible thing.

Many gun owners don't know what an "infringement" is. Or the Second Amendment. Many of them can't even tell you the 3 branches of government. Many of them think the Civil War was actually fought over slavery. We aren't teaching history so we are doomed to repeat it.

Many gun owners, right here on this forum say..."no one needs a machine gun" without realizing that they NFA is blatantly unconstitutional and that when created, handguns were on the original list.

How is paying a 200 tax on an NFA weapon not an infringement? Getting fingerprinted like a common criminal and submitting mugshots constitutional?

Lots of gun owners are OK with letting the state charge you for your right to defend yourself with a concealed weapon. Lots of them don't approve of anyone carrying a gun without a state-issued permission slip.

So yes... when you say it is the fault of gun owners for over 20,000 anti-freedom laws on the books...

You are correct. There is no solidarity. The propaganda of the last 50 years has been very successful.
For some it's not brainwashing, but it's simple economic cost.

Much comes down to money and time to challenge the Federal and State governments. Do I pay the $75 for a five year permit, or do I spend thousands in legal fees challenging the constitutionality of permit carry (and still pay my $75 in the meantime)?

Does a FFL holder spend thousands challenging the FFA and regulations under the NFA, or just carry on and decide to focus on a profitable business?

Do I sue the Federal government because I cannot own a full auto weapon without doing a lot of paperwork and paying an artificially inflated price for the weapon, or do I just stick with a semi-auto?

Right now the pain is not enough for me to sue. I don't like it, but I don't have unlimited time and funds, no matter how idiotic, say, the stamp requirement is for a suppressor.
 
#13 ·
Did we vote in every election, on every issue, every time? Did we voice our concerns, our knowledge, with our friends and relatives? Did we "get involved" in publicity to expose all these gun laws for what they were? Don't publish your answers, but think about how they apply to Photon Guy's post.
 
#17 ·
#21 · (Edited)
I agree that the term "gun community" is problematic. I think the problem is that there is not much of a gun community. This site, and others, are diminutive gun communities of a kind, but we can't even agree on all the issues that @HotGuns listed.

The only true gun community I feel a part of is the VCDL. It has its cons, of course. It is too small and underfunded to be as effective as it needs to be. It has made a few embarrassing missteps. But its pros are that it consistently fights really hard and amazingly well with almost no resources and it never compromises. You won't see any disagreements about the HotGuns' list in the VCDL. All infringements are wrong and are to be fought against with every legal method available. But I think it would be wrong to blame the VCDL as a true gun community for "allowing" the current situation. We have done everything that could be done with what we had and had some amazing success considering the strength of the opposition.

So in answer to the OP, I disagree. It is not "the gun community" or "any gun community" that has let us down. It is all those who own guns, who supposedly believe in the RTKABA, who have not become part of a gun community, not supported a gun community and not volunteered for a gun community, who are to blame. True "gun communities" are a tiny fraction of gun owners, and a tiny fraction of conservatives. But small gun communities have done yeoman service in helping preserve the RTKABA. They just can't do it all without more participation.

In truth, gun owners aren't "losing" their rights. They are giving them up.
 
#22 ·
We give a lot of money to organizations to pool our money to defend our rights like the NRA.
The left has Soros big money in their organizations
Guess the left has better lawyers and ours are piss poor
 
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#25 ·
The problem there is most of the organizations we pool our money with are too small to raise the kind of money that needs to be raised, and the one big organization with that kind of money has squandered it.

The truth is, you and I personally might do a lot, but if your "we" is all gun owners, that "we" doesn't hardly do crap. There are over 120 million gun owners in the US, which is over half of the adult population. I can't find solid numbers, but it seems clear that less than 8% are part of pro-gun organizations, even fewer contribute more than their dues and fewer still turn out as volunteers when asked. A lot don't even vote, or don't put the RTKABA first in their voting decisions. So the potential numbers are there to beat Soros and Bloomberg, but the actual numbers are pathetic.

I will say that VA Lobby Day in January was amazing. If we could get 22,000+ to turn out to events like that in every state, every time there was a challenge, that would have an effect.
 
#23 ·
The founders of our country PLEDGED their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor.

Many were killed. Some died penniless. None, in my mind, are without honor, but they were at the time!

Leaving out truly dedicated military members: How many people - gun owners or not - today would pledge their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor FOR FREEDOM?
 
#29 ·
The founders of our country PLEDGED their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor.

Many were killed. Some died penniless. None, in my mind, are without honor, but they were at the time!

Leaving out truly dedicated military members: How many people - gun owners or not - today would pledge their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor FOR FREEDOM?
ShooterGranny, that question is huge. I will. I hope I’ve that much measure. I see no reasonable alternative, if required, so there it is.
 
#24 ·
I shoot monthly with a group of 5 other guys. I know for a fact that I am the only one in the group that follows what is happening with the 2nd Amendment and other gun related issues. I write my Congressmen to express my views - I know they do not. I belong to several gun rights organizations - they don't.

Yes, I think the "gun community/gun owner" is doing it to ourselves by their apparent lack of interest.
 
#27 ·
One of my wife's relatives was fighting a Second Amendment issue. It made it to the State Supreme Court and was eventually dropped. It never got near the U.S. Supreme Court, but he was already millions of dollars into the defense.

The Second Amendment is infringed frequently. Unless you have Soros or Blumberg amounts of money, you are going to loose. Justice is expensive.
 
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#28 ·
One of my wife's relatives was fighting a Second Amendment issue. It made it to the State Supreme Court and was eventually dropped. It never got near the U.S. Supreme Court, but he was already millions of dollars into the defense.

The Second Amendment is infringed frequently. Unless you have Soros or Blumberg amounts of money, you are going to loose. Justice is expensive.
Justice is expensive but there is one thing that we all overlook.

Who is the most powerful person in America? More powerful than the President? He is above the law and he only answers to God for his decision?

A juror.

We do not have to convict a person that is contrary to unjust law. As a matter of fact it is a juror's responsibility to not convict.

Don't try to get out of jury duty. It is the one time that our vote actually counts.
 
#47 ·
There is no such thing as a gun community. There are well over one hundred million gun owners in this country.

This forum has maybe ninety different people participating actively at any given time. How do we not "allow" those infringements, which have been implemented since the ink on the Second Amendment of the Constitution was still wet?
 
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#55 ·
Sounds easy enough. Reality not so much.
Colleges are pumping out anti America graduates as fast as they can process the college loans. Media spinning facts as fast as they can dream them up .Graduates move into the workforce.
Sport and other franchises motivated by the bottom line become whatever they need to be.
Spineless politicians and group think.

The United States is like a river with many bends, switchbacks, depths and currents. The gun rights crowd find themselves spread out all over this river. The one thing in common is they're all fighting the current. Some make headway, some maintain their present position but struggle, others have been swept downstream and out to sea.
 
#62 ·
Sounds easy enough. Reality not so much.
Colleges are pumping out anti America graduates as fast as they can process the college loans. Media spinning facts as fast as they can dream them up .Graduates move into the workforce.
Sport and other franchises motivated by the bottom line become whatever they need to be.
Spineless politicians and group think.
As a college graduate myself with a bachelors degree I will say this much, Im as pro USA and as pro Second Amendment as you can get.

The United States is like a river with many bends, switchbacks, depths and currents. The gun rights crowd find themselves spread out all over this river. The one thing in common is they're all fighting the current. Some make headway, some maintain their present position but struggle, others have been swept downstream and out to sea.
If we don't work together we will all be swept downstream and out to sea. If we do work together, as one, we can stop the current, redirect it, make it go in the direction it's supposed to go in. But we all need to be in this together for that to happen. Those of us who are loyal to gun rights and loyal to the Second Amendment, we all have to work together or we will all be swept out to sea along with our gun rights.
 
#57 ·
Rather than to say the gun community is to blame for the past, I’d rather say that each gun owning individual is responsible for the 2nd Amendment going forward. Today, next week, next year. Let us focus on what we can do going forward. Your premise would be like blaming a generation for the decimation of the Social Security fund. It’s been getting abused for a long time and is still to this day. More than a generation. And no average, John Q Citizen has their hand on the lever to stop it. That will never be allowed. But we DO have control of what we allow, in our individual existences....our tiny little worlds, regarding firearms. Not yesterday, but today and tomorrow. What we accept or refute is up to each individual. I think that that is what Shooter Granny was saying in her response. The founders, one by one, pledged their all to make something happen. Many lost their all, everything, and their lives, but they made something great happen.

It’s up to each individual to not let it go to hell going forward. What happened in the past is gone. Learn from it or don’t but look forward. Enough drops of water and we may have a flood.
 
#59 ·
Rather than to say the gun community is to blame for the past, I’d rather say that each gun owning individual is responsible for the 2nd Amendment going forward.
I am not going to say every gun owning individual since there are some gun owning individuals who don't want the 2nd Amendment to go forward at all, they want gun rights only for themselves and not anybody else, people such as ::cough cough:: Kamila Harris.
Instead I am going to say each individual who believes in gun rights for the common person is responsible for the 2nd Amendment to be preserved and not trod upon. We to have to move forward but part of moving forward is undoing what has been done in the past to trod upon the 2A. That's just part of it, we've got work to do.
 
#63 ·
It's not just the gun "community" (if there is such a thing) that is at fault. It is the fault of every American who neglects supporting all the civil rights as opposed to supporting some but not the others.
 
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#68 ·
Well its obviously the fault of those who want to ban guns, those who want guns gone and those who want to spit on the 2nd Amendment, but if you just stand there and watch a crime being committed, without doing anything to stop the criminal, in some ways that's just as bad as if you've committed the crime yourself, which is what many people who claim to be for gun rights have done.
 
#64 ·
At one time you were right. In the 1970's the NRA was a compliant paper tiger. Then a revolution happened in Cincinnati and the ILA was formed. Since then other groups have stepped up also. Now the biggest burden is getting the truth out to gun owners, then guiding them on their response. There has been many successes.
But I fear the one thing you overlook is the effects of the constant stream of propaganda fed by the MSM to the masses. Add in the indoctrination of college students into the liberal mantra and you have a perfect storm that leads to there being more votes against guns than for. And in our system that number wins out.
The cultural issue is one not limited to guns, they are just the canary in the coal mine. Until parents wake up and force educators to start teaching ONLY Reading, Writing and Math and QUIT teaching Political Correctness we are fighting the current. Parents have to start standing up at PTA meetings, STOP paying tuition to schools that have become Liberal Mills and Alumni of Colleges need to STOP giving, until they get their Alma Matters to STOP this brain washing.
Then all of us have to stay on top of our elected politicians and keep them going forward, not caving to the mob.
 
#84 ·
The cultural issue is one not limited to guns, they are just the canary in the coal mine. Until parents wake up and force educators to start teaching ONLY Reading, Writing and Math and QUIT teaching Political Correctness we are fighting the current. Parents have to start standing up at PTA meetings, STOP paying tuition to schools that have become Liberal Mills and Alumni of Colleges need to STOP giving, until they get their Alma Matters to STOP this brain washing.
Then all of us have to stay on top of our elected politicians and keep them going forward, not caving to the mob.
But, but, where's your compassion? If you stand up against PC you'll be branded whatever. You might end up with death threats or your property is vandalized/destroyed or your kids are beat up at school. But parents have to make it clear that their kids have to get along with others (especially in school and in the workplace) but that doesn't mean that they have to hang out with anyone or agree with their point of view or way of life. Unfortuneatly, your off-duty or off-work time really isn't. If someone has leverage over you then you are at a big disadvantage. As for politicians, I think most of them become politicians in order to enrich themselves and to harass people they don't like (such as gun owners). In my opinion, most of the legislation that's being forced upon us is unnecessary and unconstitutional. But the law is the law until the courts rule otherwise - therein lies a major flaw in our political and judicial system (i.e. what happens if there is an AWB that is repealed 5 years down the road after you have destroyed your firearm(s)?). And if the SJW's think this country is so bad then they need to travel to other countries that are far more oppressive than this one is. I have too much to say, I should start a blog.
 
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