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To join in both JMF and Bad Bob... You guys bring up some good points for sure (you usually do anyway). But I digress.. Anyway...

Point 1.. Learning hand to hand... Unfortunately for many of us, age or disability prevents any sort of physical altercation or defense. I wonder if we took a poll of just members here and many others who have a carry license, what their age is. I know from my own personal side, I would lose every time in a hand to hand matchup. Oh, a few years of Kung Fu (Yes, the very same that David Carridine used) about 35 years ago taught me a few quick disabling moves. But lord, I'd be out of commission after one leg sweep... LOL....

Point 2. Going for your gun initially... And this is one that I've given a lot of thought to. And I'm not to sure I still have the answer yet. Appendix vs 5 O'clock carry.... That argument is probably as old, long and heated at 9mm vs 45acp. No right, no wrong answer. Just preference I suppose... For me personally, having developed a tool shed over the boys as I've grown older Appendix carry just isn't for me, And I'm more in the keep things hidden away camp anyway.. I've often thought about what would my most likely scenario be in a SD situation. I fell that appendix draw is faster and most likely less problems cleaning kydex than 5 o'clock, but I also feel that stealth in many situations would be better... Again, a question I've yet to answer for myself.....

To summarize, as many intimate, work to your abilities and / or deficiencies to be the best you can.
I am certainly not in the shape I was 40 years ago. During my training I also took some Shaolin Wushi for a couple years, while I learned alot it did not mesh well (at the time) with the Tae KwonDo I had been taking. I wrestled in high school as well so it all served me well in my LE/military career. I have lost 35 lbs in the last 3 months, I have my eye on 35 more.....Gonna be a lean mean machine again by the end of summer when I hit the big 60.

For me, at close range, going to guns has never been my first reaction.
 

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To join in both JMF and Bad Bob... You guys bring up some good points for sure (you usually do anyway). But I digress.. Anyway...

Point 1.. Learning hand to hand... Unfortunately for many of us, age or disability prevents any sort of physical altercation or defense. I wonder if we took a poll of just members here and many others who have a carry license, what their age is. I know from my own personal side, I would lose every time in a hand to hand matchup. Oh, a few years of Kung Fu (Yes, the very same that David Carridine used) about 35 years ago taught me a few quick disabling moves. But lord, I'd be out of commission after one leg sweep... LOL....

Point 2. Going for your gun initially... And this is one that I've given a lot of thought to. And I'm not to sure I still have the answer yet. Appendix vs 5 O'clock carry.... That argument is probably as old, long and heated at 9mm vs 45acp. No right, no wrong answer. Just preference I suppose... For me personally, having developed a tool shed over the boys as I've grown older Appendix carry just isn't for me, And I'm more in the keep things hidden away camp anyway.. I've often thought about what would my most likely scenario be in a SD situation. I fell that appendix draw is faster and most likely less problems cleaning kydex than 5 o'clock, but I also feel that stealth in many situations would be better... Again, a question I've yet to answer for myself.....

To summarize, as many intimate, work to your abilities and / or deficiencies to be the best you can.
I would respectfully push back on age precluding H2H. I recommend Miller's "Meditations on Violence" and Larkin's "When Violence is the Answer." They make a huge distinction between martial arts training and H2H against real violence. The first may be out of the reach of older people, but the second is not. H2H against real world violence only requires the right mindset and a limited number of non-athletic techniques. It can be taught in a relatively short period of time, but like shooting, it requires a lot of practice.

Having said that, I have just taken up kickboxing and jujitsu training at 68, despite a number of physical limitations. I studied martial arts decades ago, but I am definitely out of shape and out of practice. But I decided I'd rather fight aging than just give in to it.
 

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Several instructors/schools I have trained with offer extreme close quarters instruction: Greg Ellifritz, Tactical Defense Institute, Dave Spaulding and Robin Brown. Greg and TDI also offer ground-fighting/personnel control training.
That's great, but it is still rare and not considered part of a basic training in handgun SD. I have only seen one course offered in it here in VA and it is not near me. Fortunately, I have more training in that area than such a course would ever give me.
 

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I would respectfully push back on age precluding H2H. I recommend Miller's "Meditations on Violence" and Larkin's "When Violence is the Answer." They make a huge distinction between martial arts training and H2H against real violence. The first may be out of the reach of older people, but the second is not. H2H against real world violence only requires the right mindset and a limited number of non-athletic techniques. It can be taught in a relatively short period of time, but like shooting, it requires a lot of practice.

Having said that, I have just taken up kickboxing and jujitsu training at 68, despite a number of physical limitations. I studied martial arts decades ago, but I am definitely out of shape and out of practice. But I decided I'd rather fight aging than just give in to it.
Appreciate the information, I'll check them out...

Most of the time, my resting B face works to make people step back.. :cool:

Side note, I have asthma and during certain times of the year it's bad enough that any physical exertion can leave me winded pretty quickly... 2 years ago I had lung surgery and have 20% removed, to a bit less capacity as well... We won't even get started on the back problems... Got steroid injections about 6 months back.... My wife and I walk about a mile every morning and just purchased a Bowflex machine this past Monday so that both of us can try and start getting a bit healthier.. She has early onset Parkinsons and exercise is one the MAJOR treatments to stave off the disease as long as possible..

Going to the outdoor range I can do stand and shoot multiple targets drills fairly easy, but any type of running and shooting would leave me gasping for breath.
 

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I would respectfully push back on age precluding H2H. I recommend Miller's "Meditations on Violence" and Larkin's "When Violence is the Answer." They make a huge distinction between martial arts training and H2H against real violence. The first may be out of the reach of older people, but the second is not. H2H against real world violence only requires the right mindset and a limited number of non-athletic techniques. It can be taught in a relatively short period of time, but like shooting, it requires a lot of practice.

Having said that, I have just taken up kickboxing and jujitsu training at 68, despite a number of physical limitations. I studied martial arts decades ago, but I am definitely out of shape and out of practice. But I decided I'd rather fight aging than just give in to it.
My first TKD instructor taught us that any fight lasting more than 5 seconds we have a chance of losing.
 

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We (7 guys) took a class that lasted about 6 mo. for our church security team two yrs ago. One of the parts was standing arms length away from a silhouette and first quickly going for the eyes and at the same time drawing and pressing the gun against our rib cage and putting two rds into the target. It was in the final qualifying where we started from that point and proceeded on to increasing distances and barricades with a mag exchange and only a max of 17 rds,(8 targets) and no misses allowed. Time limit of 35 sec.That was the first day which lasted 12 hrs. in 95 deg.Four tries or you failed.Not bad for being 72 yo.
 

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I'm too old to be fighting anyone, and I'm not going to kid or fool myself into thinking I'm likely going to come out on top in a h2h situation. I suppose that some h2h training is better than having none in a real world h2h fight, but either way I feel like I'd still just would be slightly delaying the inevitable. Odds aren't in my favor. That's just my personal opinion. Not referencing anyone here, but I have seen many older, overweight, out of shape gun owners who took a few karate class and IMHO aren't being realistic about how a h2h altercation will might play out when someone is moving and fighting back. I'm sure some will disagree with me though...

On an other note being that the conscious seems to be that most self defense shootings where our lives are in danger will take place suddenly within a short distance, do you believe sights will even be utilized in most cases? If someone is coming at us with a knife or other object or if we have to draw quickly on an armed perp in a real world situation, what percentage of people do you believe actually are using there sites vs point and shooting? Are we placing to much emphasis and training utilizing our sites vs point and shoot?
 

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We (7 guys) took a class that lasted about 6 mo. for our church security team two yrs ago. One of the parts was standing arms length away from a silhouette and first quickly going for the eyes and at the same time drawing and pressing the gun against our rib cage and putting two rds into the target. It was in the final qualifying where we started from that point and proceeded on to increasing distances and barricades with a mag exchange and only a max of 17 rds,(8 targets) and no misses allowed. Time limit of 35 sec.That was the first day which lasted 12 hrs. in 95 deg.Four tries or you failed.Not bad for being 72 yo.
Not my go-to strategy, but there is more than one way up the mountain.
 

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On an other note being that the conscious seems to be that most self defense shootings where our lives are in danger will take place suddenly within a short distance, do you believe sights will even be utilized in most cases? If someone is coming at us with a knife or other object or if we have to draw quickly on an armed perp in a real world situation, what percentage of people do you believe actually are using there sites vs point and shooting?
Assuming we are facing an armed assailant, does anyone believe that they can win in a draw against the drop?
 

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That's great, but it is still rare and not considered part of a basic training in handgun SD. I have only seen one course offered in it here in VA and it is not near me. Fortunately, I have more training in that area than such a course would ever give me.
I certainly consider it an integral part of CHL-type handgun training.
 

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Assuming we are facing an armed assailant, does anyone believe that they can win in a draw against the drop?
I was thinking about a store robbery like senario where the arm criminal is focused on the clerk. There have been several of those senarios in my area where a customer shot and killed a criminal at 7/11 and other stores. There have also been cases where Uber and pizza delivery drivers shot armed robbery suspects too.

Here's a case that happened down the street from where I was living a couple of years ago.
 

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Depends..... How fast are you? is the gunman focused on you? Can you distract him at all?
I was responding to the suddenly at a short distance scenario. I'm much faster at getting off the muzzle line and doing a simple disarm than I am at drawing from concealment against the drop.
 

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I'm too old to be fighting anyone, and I'm not going to kid or fool myself into thinking I'm likely going to come out on top in a h2h situation. I suppose that some h2h training is better than having none in a real world h2h fight, but either way I feel like I'd still just would be slightly delaying the inevitable. Odds aren't in my favor. That's just my personal opinion. Not referencing anyone here, but I have seen many older, overweight, out of shape gun owners who took a few karate class and IMHO aren't being realistic about how a h2h altercation will might play out when someone is moving and fighting back. I'm sure some will disagree with me though...

On an other note being that the conscious seems to be that most self defense shootings where our lives are in danger will take place suddenly within a short distance, do you believe sights will even be utilized in most cases? If someone is coming at us with a knife or other object or if we have to draw quickly on an armed perp in a real world situation, what percentage of people do you believe actually are using there sites vs point and shooting? Are we placing to much emphasis and training utilizing our sites vs point and shoot?
OH MAN... You just had to go there.... o_O Follow the red dot thread and you will get a nice lovely discussion on that... My personal take on the OP's video does suggest that SD's can and do occur at many different distances, while primarily most are close range there are and can be times that a long distance shot may need to be taken. Also as I've said before. train to your abilities and potential situations. I don't do malls or many large outdoor venues... My average daily routine is in restaurants, small shops and Wally World If I absolutely must.. and gas stations.... If someone is popping rounds off at the other end of the store, I'm most likely going to head out the back door... especially if my family is with me.. They are my first priority.

1. Train to point and shoot... YES
2. Regular iron sites .... YES
3. Night Sights.... Don't see the appeal...
4. Red Dot on carry weapon.... NO
Those are my choices based on my abilities, my current level of training and mine alone.. Your mileage may differ....
 

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OH MAN... You just had to go there.... o_O Follow the red dot thread and you will get a nice lovely discussion on that... My personal take on the OP's video does suggest that SD's can and do occur at many different distances, while primarily most are close range there are and can be times that a long distance shot may need to be taken. Also as I've said before. train to your abilities and potential situations. I don't do malls or many large outdoor venues... My average daily routine is in restaurants, small shops and Wally World If I absolutely must.. and gas stations.... If someone is popping rounds off at the other end of the store, I'm most likely going to head out the back door... especially if my family is with me.. They are my first priority.

1. Train to point and shoot... YES
2. Regular iron sites .... YES
3. Night Sights.... Don't see the appeal...
4. Red Dot on carry weapon.... NO
Those are my choices based on my abilities, my current level of training and mine alone.. Your mileage may differ....
I only brought it up because from what I seen, most gun owners seem to train with using their iron or red dot sights only. They go to the range, shoot at a none moving target 7 yards or so away, get nice groups, and then think they're prepared. I'm guilty of this myself.
 

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I only brought it up because from what I seen, most gun owners seem to train with using their iron or red dot sights only. They go to the range, shoot at a none moving target 7 yards or so away, get nice groups, and then think they're prepared. I'm guilty of this myself.
That's practice, not training. Big difference.
 

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I only brought it up because from what I seen, most gun owners seem to train with using their iron or red dot sights only. They go to the range, shoot at a none moving target 7 yards or so away, get nice groups, and then think they're prepared. I'm guilty of this myself.
So true... Most of the time especially indoor ranges limit your shooting. No rapid fire, no draw from holster, etc. But many will allow at least double taps. When I'm at the indoor range, I at least try to start from a low ready position and get on target with two rounds off as quick as I can.. Sometimes when I have the target set about 5 feet away and I do this I get some strange looks from newer shooters. I've had to explain what I'm doing and you see the light bulb turn on over their heads... That's why I offer beginner handgun, and go up from there on my classes. I take a lot of new CCW students up from just basic standing there shooting at stationary targets to engaging multiple targets, holster draw, how to dress for concealment. Close in situations, etc.. It's amazing how far you can take someone with a basic understanding of firearms in just a few hours...
 

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I was responding to the suddenly at a short distance scenario. I'm much faster at getting off the muzzle line and doing a simple disarm than I am at drawing from concealment against the drop.
THAT is what most people do not know. Like you that is way faster for me as well. Done right they will end up with several broken bones. I have done it with guns twice and once with a knife in RL.
 
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