[P95Carry]

This ties in somewhat with Euc's Thread but I decided to post this as a separate entity - as much as anything to reinforce my thoughts on the matter. I am also going to be about as dogmatic as I get - usually I avoid outright dogma.

TRUST! Not only something I give cautiously but something I feel I usually need to earn, to expect it from others. The earning as such is really down to how well folks know me and see me, how I treat them, and my way of living - proof if you will of my integrity.

When it comes to carry (even just plain gun ownership too sometimes) - I have a problem if someone who knows me well should decide they don't want me in their house or around them. Of course, their house and their rules - I must accept that and adhere to it but, I'll not necessarily admire said decision.

Bottom line - if they do not want me around with my carry piece - ergo - THAY DO NOT TRUST ME!! That is my dogmatic statement!

Reason I say that is - providing someone has the sense (hopefully) to realize that a gun is an inert tool and only dangerous in wrong hands - it must therefore be all down to trust - or lack of it. In my care - the gun is as safe as it gets - under my control entirely... and so to see myself labelled as unsafe must by default be taken as zero trust. That is how I read it.

Fortunately this is hardly a problem for most part - either it's a case of ''concealed is concealed'', so no one is any the wiser, or my friends or family know and accept - but, as did happen once - someone was visiting in my home!!! and expressed concern in no small manner, at my (then open) carry!

In that case I made my points re safety etc - the gun had no will of its own - and yet they were close to insisting I took it off . It was that occasion that made the light switch right on - and I retorted that I could only assume they mistrusted me! That at least had the desired effect and after some bluster, they saw reason and calmed down - at least their cerebral logic center was not missing!

I was though very close to telling them to get their coat and leave - my point being that it was potentially a direct insult to me and my integrity. Since then my feeling on this has only strengthened - and should a similar occur then I will (justifiably I think) take offence and hope to distance myself from that person for good.

Trust me - trust my gun - period

There!! rant and ramble over! :wink: :smile:

 

[FortyFive]

This ties in somewhat with Euc's Thread but I decided to post this as a separate entity - as much as anything to reinforce my thoughts on the matter. I am also going to be about as dogmatic as I get - usually I avoid outright dogma.

Reason I say that is - providing someone has the sense (hopefully) to realize that a gun is an inert tool and only dangerous in wrong hands - it must therefore be all down to trust - or lack of it. In my care - the gun is as safe as it gets - under my control entirely... and so to see myself labelled as unsafe must by default be taken as zero trust. That is how I read it.


Trust me - trust my gun - period

There!! rant and ramble over! :wink: :smile:

I don't believe a person visiting a home takes issue with trust in the gun owner as such. This is difficult for me to find the right words. People either understand firearms or they don't. People either understand the person carrying the firearm or they don't. In either case they may say nothing or leave.
I will give an opinion and my rule. If I visit a house as part of a group or gathering and the owner drags out guns I am outa there period. The situation can become to uncomfortable and dangerious for me and my loved one.
If I visit a friends house or shooter I know its not a problem. I try to maintain good safe gun protocol in my home when showing a gun to a friend if he asks me to.
I have offered to show a new .45 to my neighbor and his son but he refused saying the kids mother would not want that to happen.
I can understand a visitor being upset seeing a gun strapped on somebody and would not take offense about trust. It is a strange world out there pertaining to guns and why we have them. People will say I don't allow guns in my house. So they don't want you there helping them if they are being raped???
I sure hope I didn't tread on anyones toes here.

 

[P95Carry]

If I visit a house as part of a group or gathering and the owner drags out guns I am outa there period. The situation can become to uncomfortable and dangerious for me and my loved one.

FortyFive - yes, I can see some sense there - particularly if the ''demonstrator'' is not someone you know and trust implicitly. Lot's of folks (some hardly known to you perhaps) and lots of guns - there is potential there for safety breeches.

I can understand a visitor being upset seeing a gun strapped on somebody and would not take offense about trust.

Well - I sorta understand the upset/discomfort deal - initially. My point tho is - and this is I hasten to add just me! - once it is explained that this frightening thing they are puckering over is seen as safe in my control and husbandry and they still have to freak out - then, that is where I see a lack of trust. I read it as they do not/cannot see me as responsible!!

Could be an age thing :wink: I just would not be prepared to be so tolerant that I'd feel like removing the ''offending article'' just to appease their paranoia! :smile:

As I said before - fortunately, this is hardly a problem.

 

[FortyFive]

This is a good post by the way :smile: To some extent its an age thing, the fact that you are a careful person and seasoned in firearms issues makes you credible. I don't think you would have to remove the offending article. Give you an idea about how people think even family members. My grandson(age 22) sees my .45 near my computer. His question is pop why do you have your gun there.? My answer is something like its security, and hey do you want a .45, I will give you one of mine. He says no, if I have a gun then someone will want to come after me. Its just how certain groups of people think. I would not carry open in the house or out, but thats just me. Folks in Arizona have carried open for a long time but maybe for a reason connected to their work. It raises alot of questions in todays world, people don't expect it.
If I were to be invited to your house and you were open carry I would not think any more about it, I could care less. Don't get hung up on todays issues about guns and translate that into trust. We in the gun world understand what we should and should not do with firearms.

 

[The Tourist]

P95Carry,

This issue tracks at two levels for me, and I'd like to explain.

Track one, I live in the Peoples' Republik of Madison. In two separate court cases, the University has tried to limit unwanted opinions as 'hate speech.' In two separate rulings by The State Supreme Court, both tries were thrown out.

My opinion is 'duh.' I don't need or want some tree-hugging professor, who needs to steal Euc's inflatable fiance,' to tell me what and where The Framers have guaranteed my freedom. However, I may be expelled from school.

(The Framers admitted that "the tree of liberty often needs to be watered with the blood of its citizens.")

Track two, I have been a bike club member for three decades. You might have a functional bike, a valid license and a NRA sticker, but if you're a newbie, you ride in the back. We call it "drag." Only the most privileged officers and Road Captains lead.

It's not a snob thing, even if some guys think it is. Newbies don't know how to modulate the speed of a phalanx of individually moving motorcycles. They accelerate too rapidly and brake too quickly and firmly. And when they do brake hard, they have little, if any idea how a large motorcycle responds.

As much as I love The Second Amendment, I'm weary of newbies with guns. And I would be especially careful around a young newbie with a brand new CCW permit and a 1911 full of hollowpoints.

He may have the credentials, but whether we agree on the terms and conditions of licenses under a stick construction Constitution, a CCW in our present society is a privilege. It can be rescinded.

And you know what, I agree.

You do something stupid with a firearm, including flaunting it in a "no gun zone" to prove your political cause, and we all suffer.

The place to change this attitude is at the ballot box, not in the check-out line at Walmart.

 

[P95Carry]

No disagreement there Tourist - I would say most of us (heck, many of us are ''oldish'' - kindest way I can put it LOL) - are leary of newbies carrying. I need proof positive that they are safe and competent. That applies of course to those I have not spent time with - observing and checking out.

Once however I am fully satisfied as to trustworthiness I would reckon any disallowance of said person to carry in my home would be to show mistrust. Trust is either there - acrooss the board - or it ain't. My point above is same thing in reverse - and I stress, only directed at those who should know me as trustworthy and responsible. Then just because I carry should be no reason to rescind that trust - that is my point.

If someone meets me first time - that's different - they may not know me from Adam and so have no knowledge of my competence - and I would then accept a lack of trust - it would be justified. All down to trust having to be earned.

Point agreed too - on the newby thing re flaunting - that encroaches well on my ''Macho'' thread from a while ago.

As for the bike thing - heck I'd say that's pretty normal and any newbie not liking it - can go disappear up his own tailpipe! LOL. That again is earning of trust and proving of competence. I like you have ridden a long time - probably 40 years and more - 200,000 miles at very least, and so would expect once proven reliable to not be (quite) relegated to back of line.

Once well proven tho and accepted, I'd probably feel a sense of implied mistrust if pushed to back, mainly of course concerning those who would/should know me and my riding ability.

My whole ramble is really just based on trust being either there, in full - or not at all. For those who know me - I don't see a half measure - they do or they don't.

 

[dhomoney]

Tourist, well thought out. I disagree that CCW is a privledge, I view it as an abridged right, that needs to be restored. This right started to be abridged when the slaves became citizens and it was to keep the guns out of the hands of former slaves. Now we in a sense have become the slaves, as we give up rights, for the false sense of security that comes from a piece of paper or plastic the state gives you.

The freedom of speech does not require a license, nor does the right to a speedy and fair trail. Why is it that Americans are now so willing to give their rights up for false sense of security?

I do not fear the newbie, remember we were all newbies not so long ago. That does not mean we waved our guns around or shot them in the air a la Saddam Hussein. Instead we, like most people, strove to learn and to understand the responcability which we have chosen to bear. While deadly force is a grave responcability to bear, it is also one that I think we can all agree, has been handled well by the overwhelming majority of CCW holders and gun owners in general.

Never, ever give up a right. As our forefathers have told us "Liberty requires eternal vigilence" and "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security". These are the principles that all true patriots should live by.

 

[dhomoney]

On the issue of trust I believe trust needs to be earned. People now-a-days seem to expect to be trusted and that is a fundemental shift in thinking from the not so distant past.

At least here in the Northern Virginia area, just outside Washington, D.C. there is an air of entitlement that is sickening. Everyone feels entitled to do whatever they please. You will see drivers pull a U-Turn in the middle of a busy street, not even going up to the light less then a quarter mile ahead.

People feel they are entitled to be happy or to make more money and look for instant gratification. These are all issues that I have had with the way society is going and all relate to trust. My trust is hard earned and easily lost and very rarely engendered once lost.

 

[The Tourist]

P95Carry,

Yes, you're right. We are in total agreement. Yikes, for me, that's a first.

 

[P95Carry]

dhomoney - I think we are very comfortably on the same page! :smile:

We are in total agreement.

Shucks Tourist - I am honored Sir! Can we have Bumper archive this!?? :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[Bud White]

Ive had both issues where someone asked me not to carry at there house i was cool about it left and never been back ...

Another said something about me carrying in my house i told them they can leave and never come back.. Pretty cut and dry for me ill obey your wishes and just wont come back ...

But to have the guts to say you dont want me to carry in my own home... Dont let the door hit ya on way out...


Guess this bad attiude is why i keep to myself :grumpy:

 

[rocky]

No one knows I am carrying in their house. Well a few trusted friends who think similar, but thats all. I feel that most folks are comfortable not knowing, and it works better for me. I would leave if asked to, but also will carry in my own home as if I feel like doing so.

 

[cmidkiff]

Trusting other gun owners

I have had the opportunity, twice now, to meet in fair numbers with the members of another CCW website for a group shoot. Both times, I was more than a little concerned about safety. Both times, my fears were proven groundless.

At the last of these get-togethers, 2 weeks ago, there were roughly 60 people, almost all of whom I'd never met, all armed to the teeth. We went through tens of thousands of rounds, everything from .22 pistols through full-auto machine guns (BAR, suppressed uzi, glock 18, SAW, yeah, it was fun!).

I believe I saw the muzzle end of a weapon _once_ during the entire session, and that was while admiring someone's carbon-fiber barrel, after I had seen him place a snap-cap in the chamber. The worst situation of the day was a rebound catching a guy in the belly, didn't break the skin. Other than a few sore fingers from loading mags, no blood was drawn.

I'm as cautious as anyone, having seen some very inappropriate handling at a local range, but my experience at these group shoots has me questioning my reasons for being suspicious of gun owners that I don't personally know. I'm more apt to assume that an unfamiliar face at the range is simply another trustworthy citizen, rather than an imminent threat. I will, however, continue to keep my eyes open!

 

[P95Carry]

I will, however, continue to keep my eyes open!

cmidkiff - yep, way to go.

I ran a shoot this last Saturday and knew some folks from before - and a few met for first time. I was pretty at ease overall but - without actually mistrusting was, as RO for the day - simply cautious and vigilant. In those situations I think the normal safety proceedures will cover all bases if applied, plus I think that most gunnies are observant too of each other - not critically - just that extra awareness we (should) have.

For most part - once I have had a chance to observe a shooter who is new to me for a while - I can usually tell his/her basic aptitude and approach to safety. Once satisfied on that then, from the gun aspect will feel able to trust them around me. Usually doesn't take long.

Just over a week ago at last IDPA, one RO threw a guy off the line for bad muzzle control - the stage was a tricky one - walking back while engaging - and the ''180'' rule was in force. This guy broke that badly!!! It will take some time before he is able to prove his worth after that tho I hope he will have learned a salutary lesson!!

But yeah, always - eyes open - watch and see!

 

[Tom357]

...Trust me - trust my gun - period

There!! rant and ramble over! :wink: :smile:

I think there has been enough indoctrination that there are some who are afraid of guns, making it possible to trust you, but not your gun. These people really are afraid that the gun will go off of its own accord. They really are afraid that their lives are endangered by its presence in the room, because it might strike, even unloaded and disabled. It's sad, but I've seen it. I do understand what you are saying, though. It's hard not to take it personally when people who should know you as sane and responsible treat you as untrustworthy, and it is a matter of trust.

 

[FortyFive]

This is not responding to anyone's post in particular, its about trusting someone with a firearm!

Trust with a firearm-A state senator’s 20 year old(about) is with his friend who enters the room with a shotgun and blows his head off. Guess how many stupid anti-gun bills we are faced with because of this. Trust-A father or step father is in the bathroom with his new shotgun and manages to blow the arm apart of the 3 year old daughter standing nearby.
Trust- How many cops have an ND with glocks going on duty. Trust-Have you ever seen the video of the suspect in custody lying on the ground and a nearby female cop holsters her weapon and it fires.
Trust-Street cops bring a weapon confiscated from a BG to the police armory, a firearms expert with 30 years experience is holding it and it auto fires right through his head.
Sometimes trust is not enough. These are the events I know of think about how many others happen because of Trust.

 

[P95Carry]

These are the events I know of think about how many others happen because of Trust.

Small caveat FortyFive - ''Misplaced'' trust!! Or - if you like, trust based on inadequate/overly casual appraisal or assessment etc.

Not trying to be pedantic!! (honest!). :smile:

 

[FortyFive]

Trust is a complicated issue in our world of be very careful or very dead!!!! :smile:

 

[dhomoney]

Trust - A video of a DEA agent showing kids and parents firearms and makes the statement that he is the only one "professional" enough to hand said firearm (Glock 40) safely, just before shooting himself in the foot.

 

[Gideon]

How we feel about someone else's lifestyle choices has a LOT to do with cultural conditioning. I believe carry is a right of every American but I wouldn't trust half of the people I've ever known to carry. In a moral responsible society, there is little need for weapons, however, in such a society everyone can carry without any problems. But when a country starts sliding off the deep end (and I believe we are in a big way), then there are going to be more and more I wouldn't trust with a gun, and there'll be more and more need for some to have guns! A pretty bad situation but it's the reality. What concerns me about all of this besides the trust issue is the cultural conditioning. Some people just can't grasp why I'd want to own a gun, much less walk around in the relative safety of my own home with one on my side. Another matter that gums the works up further is how perceptions are formed about different people and their lifestyles. I carry, love weapons, ride a bike and I'm a born again, ordained Baptist Preacher who is so concervative the "far right" would seem liberal in contrast, yet there are quite a few people who have a very negative perception about that combination. It's where that perception comes from that concerns me. You take a young child, raise them without guns, history of the US, or without truly knowing God and then show most bad guys as long haired, foul mouthed, jerks with guns who often drive motorcycles, and you've created a perception. Thank you very much Hollywood! Now, take a clean cut guy who loves the outdoors, enjoys riding anything (horses to bikes), who keeps his language clean and tries to act with character, honor, and integrity and most people think they're nerds, jerks, wimps, etc. Where'd that perception come from? Hollywood again? I'm not sure, but I know it's happening. I really appreciate it when I see folks on these forums reminding us that our example is important and I worry about the ones (not on this forum of course, :wink: ) who come off seeming like paranoide gun freaks who don't care about any law other than the law of their own personal survial.

I've spent a lot of time researching CCW, weapons, etc. and I've seen some attitudes on other forums that would greatly contribute to a negative perception of those who carry.

As for getting rid of friends over this, I think it would have to really depend on the circumstances. I think of the friends I have now and if they told me kindly not to carry in their house I can't imagine not being their friend over that issue. I wouldn't agree with them, but I'd respect them. If carrying a gun in their house is more important than the friendship, then I didn't really have much of a friendship with them. But I guess you're all talking about folks we meet and begin to know. In that case I guess I probably wouldn't have too much in common with them. Then again, being a Preacher, a lot of folks tend to shy away.

Well, just my two cents, but I think were heading for perilous times in this country and I wonder if my grandchildren will be able to CCW!

take care

Gideon