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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

I post this video as being complimentary to the item I'd posted by Jane's as related to unsighted 'Point Shooting' and law enforcement officer survival.

Most everyone who is even remotely familiar with even basic rudimentary firearms training has heard of Sgt. Dennis Tueller and his famous 'Tueller Drill'.
It's probably the most widely known gunfu term out there aside from 'Mozambique'.

Also known as the 'Twenty One Foot Drill' the bottom line premise is that average fitness and determined human being can _close distance_ to a 'target' as running in a straight line within approximately 1.5 to as slow as 2 seconds.
Mind you this is not Usain Bolt or Michael Johnson type athletes. We're talking Deebo and Slim Shady. Two seconds is not a lot of time folks. And that's all you get in time to detect a threat, make a judgment and......react. Two seconds. At the most. Very likely less.

Below is a new vid recently posted to YouTube of an IDPA match stage setup using a training device that quite accurately imitates the Tueller Drill.
It allows for live ammunition reaction and fire on to the target.

Watch this video carefully at full screen mode, and learn...


MVSA IDPA Match - MGM's new charging target - FAST AS HELL

August 29, 2009

This mover was just stupid. I've never seen one this fast.

Stage 7 from the Shoot Rattle & Roll in 2009
Shoot this thing 4 times, starting with your hand on the gun holstered.
I shot a 1.80 with zero points down in this video.
In IDPA scoring parlance zero points down means no misses and no errant hits on target but outside of primary hit zones being at the sternum and face.
Where as his time score of 1.80 is the accumulation of raw time plus any errors scored as 'down points' to be counted as a time increase penalty.

Several items to note:
A) The shooter starts knowing that he will be attacked and he is at the holstered with hand on grip position, as akin to a typical law enforcement stance/posture as when questioning a potential threat.

B) Time of YouTube video counter is 0:04s at the sound of the buzzer.

C) The shooter is able to draw and get his front sight aligned in less than one second as in between the YouTube video counter of 0:04 and 0:05s.
Non shooter and _unpracticed_ type shooters assume that being able to draw alone in a second muchless faster is to be super human. It very much is with training and practice. It is though if you are the type to never train from the holster. For those folks expect to be half as fast and even slower, on the draw alone.

Now very big item here, look at the video and note the distance the target has advanced in just 0:04s. It's damn near 6'! Already it's greater than 25% of the way to making contact and the shooter has just now got his gun out of the holster.

D) The shooter has full extension and front sight aligned at YouTube video counter 0:05s.
The target is still moving closing distance...

E) The shooter fires his first shot at just over 0:05s per the YouTube video counter.

F) The shooter gets off a total of four shots from his Glock inside of 1.80s.

G) The shooter at the 0:06s mark has run out of time and space as the target is now making contact with his shared position in space and time!

Now that may seem like a lot.
Well, it is!

A lot can and does happen inside of 2s.
Two seconds.

So for us non law enforcement civilians who either carry as on the street being largely concealed and thus drawing from behind/under a garment, the idea and focus of training becomes even more important and critical.

Can you draw from concealment as from your carry holster of choice and place a hit muchless multiple hits on a target moving at human speed? If not, why?
Do you train for as much? If not, why?
Do you think it's not all that relevant or realistic? If so, why?

And if you are a LEO and you do not train at all muchless to this degree including such drills within your regimen then well you have to ask yourself as well; Why?.

More on the apparatus that supports this training exercise as well as that of the Tueller Drill can be found here:

Attack Target by MGM Targets

Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Police Policy Studies Council - Dennis Tueller: 21 Foot Rule

Myself I have for a few years now been training using a modification of this same drill, but instead with target set to 15', rather than 21', and using a 'Dozier Drill' picking up a loaded gun from a table in front of me as loaded with three rounds and a second reload magazine of three on my hip. The target is an 8" paper pie plate.
Goal being to grasp the weapon, acquire the target, Fire three rounds, initiate an 'Emergency Reload' (gun empty! and magazine empty!), charge the weapon, and continue firing until either the gun is empty or the target makes contact.

I regularly can make it to reload and fire one round. I have on occasion reloaded and fired the sixth round at time of contact with the target. I assure you this is difficult and will get your heart racing after just two attempts.

Oh and BTW, in the real world one would not just stand there waiting for Deebo to run into and through them.
You would get off the X and MOOOVE!!!...While drawing, acquiring sights (if _distance_ allows) and/or begin point shooting as putting rounds into the target.

Always know and never forget that not so much time but DISTANCE is our very best friend.

Be careful out there.

- Janq

Note: I am not at all affiliated with the Attack Target people nor Dennis Tueller.
I am not a law enforcement officer either.
What I am though is a citizen who does carry, daily, everywhere and I take the right, responsibility, and craft along with legality very seriously.

With training and dry fire practice as well as coin $pent on training courses both group and one on one I've developed to become as noted by others "Very Fast" out of the holster to first shot on target.
That wasn't always the case though and isn't for very many other gun carrying persons be they LEO or civilian.

The month you skip toward training may be equivalent to the two seconds _gain_ you would need so as to survive, rather than die.

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Good post janq

I need to get to the range:embarassed:

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2,348 Posts
clarification please

From the original post

"In IDPA scoring parlance zero points down means no misses and no errant hits on target but outside of primary hit zones being at the sternum and face.
Where as his time score of 1.80 is the accumulation of raw time plus any errors scored as 'down points' to be counted as a time increase penalty."

I have never had been to an IDPA match but have read a little about the sport. I guess I am confused by the above mention of errant hits outside of primary zones. You stated "Hits on target BUT outside of the primary hit zones."
Looking at the video, are the hits not all in the sternum? That is incredible shooting, at that pace. Of course the last one or two shots were nearly contact shots. Still I know I could not match this.
I need to build me a outdoor range where I can practice drawing and shooting. (Snap caps at first)

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5,182 Posts
Here's what an IDPA target looks like when stationary:

As you can see, the head and center chest are the "-0" zones, with the rest of the inner torso at "-1" and the outer torso at "-3".

Each hit in the "-0" area, as expected, counts as 0 points down.
Hits in the -1 and -3 areas count as 1 and 3 points down per.
A miss counts as 5 down.

For most stages, the best two hits are scored. So if you pull your first shot low, and then put 2 in the -0, you end up 0 down.

A target that contains no hits also incurs a failure to neutralize, which is 10 points down.

At the end of the stage, the final score is your time in seconds + 1/2 second for each point down.

So your overall score ends up being a combination of speed and accuracy. And you truly cannot miss fast enough to win :smile:


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5,182 Posts
Great post, Janq - and a really great mover for IDPA there.

We've got a couple movers at the club where I shoot, but they are not nearly that fast.


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Very interesting, the video really drives home the point.

Now consider as fast out of the holster, numerous in shots fired (four) and accurate in hits this shooter was at this distance as in relation to the movers known speed...
Consider how much _more_ effective he might have been had he been practiced in and applied point shooting skill (!).

As referenced in my other thread the more normal contact distances for LEOs in specific is at engagement distances of 21' and much less.
Same applies for civilians up to and including zero/contact distance. Now what?

As this video was IDPA based there is a focus on _extreme_ accuracy rather than combat accuracy.

People should know that IDPA accuracy is all things being relative quite fine. Were talking 8" pie plate dimensions, and less.
Where as combat accuracy is in relation to scoring body hits as to the main trunk/torso.
On the streets as a LEO or civilian we win by stopping the threat, period. Maintaining tight groups and style points count for nothing. They impress no one, not even the coroner as per reporting from coroners.

Below is an image of a human torso as a diagram of internals...

Source - Bayou Renaissance Man: Firearm recommendations for home defense, Part 2

Below is an official IDPA target construction diagram...

Source - The Breda Fallacy: Gun Nuts - IDPA

Below is an image of a standard IDPA target as in relation to that of a well within averages height and build male human being...

Source - Tri-County Sportmans League - IDPA

Now imagine scoring just four hits as the video shooter did as into a real human being. As noted his score was 'Down Zero'. Excellent all things considered, as related to the IDPA game.
But what about the very much real world?

Assuming his autoloader had a magazine loaded to full capacity and changing no other variables such as his lack of movement from the 'X', imagine the results if he had at the buzzer/boot drop had skill enough to defend himself via point shooting to start if not in full (!).

The volume of unconventionally _aimed_ fire would be greater simply for reason of having required less TIME to draw and take a firing set/position as in relation to the DISTANCE that the target was away and gaining upon him.
Pay very close attention to the videos timing. Every action he makes comes at a cost in not just time but time AND distance. Distance as in relation to the threats proximity to his own as amongst a finite amount of space and time. This is a very important item to understand. It could save your life, literally.

What is key toward stopping a human being is to either score a CNS shot or to induce bio-physical shock.

The former is well known and documented to not be an easy item to do as even with a rifle as deployed at distance, never mind in using a relatively low powered handgun. The thought that one could simply score a head shot through the occular orbit or nasal cavity as under this manner of time to distance stress is not reasonable. It just is not and to bet on as much is foolish. Yes it happens, but with lots and lots of luck. I will not bet my life or that of my family on luck and randomness. It would be foolish to do so.

Which leads us to the latter being bio-physical shock.
Shock comes about from several different clear factors...

One being pain.
The brain becomes overloaded with sensory input and as means of survival it shuts the body or even itself down, temporarily. Many persons have witnessed or experienced this first hand from being stunned/dazed to even completely blacking out.

A second being blood loss.
It is very well known that blood loss will kill a person, slowly or quickly as depending on how leaky the body is and where the leak is located. Numerous leaks though is a problem as our body and brain (!) is highly dependent on and affected by blood pressure.
Many persons have witnessed or experienced this first hand as well. This too is well documented human physiology fact.

A third is reduction/loss of mental tenacity.
Equally well known is that if an individual makes a personal choice to stop what they are doing or better yet becomes over ridden with fear as related to their own wound(s), they will most often times stop doing what they are doing and do something else.
This too has been very well reported by first person witnesses as well as persons who have experienced such degree pain and wounding.

So going back to the video and knowing all of the above, when not on an IDPA stage but rather in the real world where threats are human and often come at shooters (YOU!) as being armed...
What will you do?
What means of defense would you choose?

What would you prefer...

To be 'down zero' as with just four combat accurate and relatively fine shots fired and bet/hope that the rounds striking the threats lungs and maybe the top of the liver is enough to stop that _human being_?


Would you prefer to have the skill sets and ability to fire with combat accuracy and coarse shots fired numbering six, seven, eight or more rounds down to slide lock resulting in very many multiple pain and blood loss inducing hits to both lungs, the pancreas, spleen, large and small intestine, the diaphragm (a muscle that directly supports/allows respiration!), the stomach and more never mind the pain of having ones skin which itself is an organ penetrated numerously and in many differing areas as opposed ot in one relatively small area.

Yes by IDPA scoring the latter would be deemed newbie level non-competitive type shooting skill.
But (!), you would be the one to more than likely walk away on the streets.
ALIVE! As in you being the one who is 'down zero'.

Think about that for a moment.
You've got two seconds, at twenty one feet.

This was a lot to write, and for you to read, but I feel it's an item that needs to be said.
As based on known and very well documented real world results toward law enforcement officers alone my points are not not off target.
They and we civilians too encounter the real world as largely in a one dimensional mindset. As though we are shooting at paper targets and in a quasi Bullseye style manner of competitive shooting. This is wrong. Or rather it is not what is most correct as related to real life threats who are not made of cardboard and do not go BEEEP just before moving.

I would encourage all persons who take seriously their personal/professional carry of handgun firearms in specific to consider expanding their mind and mental view as related to skill set training and retention.

Failure to do so may be fine and okay.
Or it may not. But then to that degree you're betting toward and have dependence on lady luck and randomness.
Is your life and that of your work associates/partner and/or that of your family worth more to you than luck and randomness?

A very personal matter that question is, but for me the answer is very unequivocal. Yes.
I am not a top shooter in IDPA but I never went in to that sport hoping to be so. For me it is merely trigger time. As real world much of what they do in that sport/game to win I would not choose first if even at all as on the streets up against Deebo, Slim Shady, and/or Michael Myers type non-cardboard threats.

Be careful out there.

- Janq

"The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand." - Sun Tzu,'The Art of War'

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Moving targets are an excellent training tool, but I think the version in the video has a potentially lethal flaw. When the target reaches the end of the track, it stops and pitches down onto the ground. The shooter on the video is excellent, but no matter how good or fast you are, no handgun rounds are guaranteed to bring a charging man to an instant stop. Instant stops are possible, of course, but we should not expect them. More likely than not, the assailant's momentum is going to carry him forward. He may be a dead man walking, but he'll probably be able to use his last moments of life to stick that knife in us.

We should not train like an instant stop is going to be the norm. Being able to draw quickly and shoot accurately are certainly vital skills, but they are not enough in this kind of scenario. We also need to be able to move off the X and prevent the assailant from laying a blade on us after we shoot him.

A moving target that guarantees that the assailant is never going to reach us is training the wrong habits. We had something similar when I was shooting with the Utah Polite Society. It was essentially a target stand with four wheels and a rope on it so it could be pulled towards the shooter. The difference is, if you didn't move out of the way, you would get run over. Even better is to get some airsoft guns and training knives and do this force on force, versus a live, moving opponent who can react to the shooter's actions and do their best to hit him with a foam rubber blade.

The fundamental truth is that pistol bullets suck. Sometime they don't work, and they often don't work right away. Training as if they always instantly incapacitate the attacker is a very bad idea.

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Good posting.

The Tueller Drill is just that, a drill. It really serves as a great example of how fast a threat can close in.

I believe in the original study the magic number of 21 feet is because the average person can close that 21 foot gap in the time it takes to draw and fire one round.

This is an excellent force on force drill where the only way to win it is to get off the X and to get inside your opponents OODA cycle.

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I also have to assume that my draw would be delayed in an actual encounter simply because of the "I can't believe this is actually happening" response.

Which is why it is critical tothat end alone to be mentally trained to identify a problem and know when to make that leap, and be in your mind & soul prepared to do what you need to do. No waffling no equivocating.
When the 'target' begins to move against you that is not the time to run mental debate in ones own mind of how will God/neighbors/friends/media view me and my actions if I defend myself. Is this moral? Do I have the stones/nerve? Can I make the shot and not miss? Will my ammo 'over penetrate'? I didn't train this _quarter_ am I rusty? Is my safety on or off? Damn, why didn't I listen to those guys on the internet and carry in Condition ONE!!!

You've got two seconds to 1) React and 2) Act...At best. Maybe.

By complete happenstance there is today a really good thread posted by another member reflecting on his own experience real world upon being accosted by a threat. It has many elements as same if not similar t what I've touched on above and in across these two threads today.

It can and does happen to anyone, at any time, under any given circumstance, anywhere...

Train now because you might not have an opportunity later. :|

- Janq

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:congrats: Outstanding post Janq. Be advised I will steal it and email it to two of my students that I was just explaining about Tueller today.

I love the target. I would add something to that stage and that would be to have the shooter move out of the X. Move to whichever side he wants but MOVE.

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Very thought provoking, insightful and concise. I am nominating this entire tread to go into the "Reference & How To" section!

Outstanding post, Sir!


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I hope you do not mind if I trailor on to your outstanding thread.

Combat Accuracy

There are many varying opinions on what accuracy is needed inside of combat. Who is correct all comes down to who you believe. The definition that I use when it comes to combat accuracy is as follows, “any hit on the adversary that effects change in the adversary in regards to the OODA loop.” In reality, any hit on the adversary is good for you and bad for them

The generally accepted nation wide hit ratio for law enforcement officers is 15-25%. This is with guys that have to qualify often using fundamentals of marksmanship skill sets. The question is why is this hit ratio so low while the qualification standards are so much higher?

When we look at combat accuracy we need to factor in the balance “to hit and to not be hit.” The reality of not wanting to be hit simply has to be factored into the equation. This is why we see such a low hit ratio. Fundamentals of marksmanship skill sets are not the mythical “end all, be all” inside of combat situations. The situation is the dictating factor…..not the technique focused fundamentals of marksmanship. When we understand the physiological desire to “not get hit” it becomes evident that inside of combat, misses happen. They happen even more readily if you do not train within reality…… the “to hit and not be hit” reality. Once we accept this reality and begin looking at skill sets beyond the fundamentals of marksmanship the hit ratio improves dramatically. There are many police departments across the nation that have proved this to be fact with their increased hit ratio.

Let’s look at some of the things that have been taught as acceptable combat accuracy in the recent past.

The Pump House

The pump house is that fist size group into the heart. By all means, this is a great area to target. It is my default, but it is not the “end all, be all” fight stopper that many would have you believe. There are numerous stories of dedicated opponents that that fought well and continued to kill even after taking hits to the pump house, just because the adversary may very well die, does not mean he is dead yet. Many times people will refer to these guys as “he did not know he was dead yet” guys. I see them more as “I am going to take as many of you with me as I can” guys. There is a huge difference in the mindset and danger level between the two. Shots to the pump house are not a guaranteed immediate fight stopper. In fact there is no guarantee that the adversary is going to eventually die due to the shot to the heart.

On the square range, there are those that teach the following. “You will be half as good in a life threatening encounter as you are on your best day at the range.” They teach a fist size group, in the pump house, on the range telling you that it will turn into a hand span group in a life threatening encounter. While this all sounds great, the generally accepted hit ratio numbers simply do not back up this claim. In my humble opinion, this would be due to not training within reality

The Thoracic Cavity

This is the hand span group that covers the heart and the upper lungs. There is a lot of good stuff in here to cause substantial bleeding and breathing problems. While my default may be the pump house, I would be more than happy with any hits in the upper thoracic cavity. A very good representation of the upper thoracic cavity is a nine inch paper plate. Good stuff? You bet! Although, the thoracic cavity is not the guaranteed fight stopper that some would have you believe. Not only is it not an immediate fight stopper many people survive chest wounds.

Cranial Ocular Band

This is the credit card width band that wraps around the whole head. This targeted area is delineated by the soft tissue around the nose and the eyes. It is also delineated by the thin skull around the temple, the ears, and the base of the skull. Some portray this as a “turning them off like a light switch.” This is simply not so. There are cases of people fighting through hits to the cranial ocular band. The only way to “flip the switch” to turn a person off is with a direct hit to the medulla oblongata or the “apricot” as the snipers call it. The medulla oblongata is part of the “Reticular Activating System”. The RAS is the portion of the brainstem that keeps someone awake. That is one of the reasons that a shot in the medulla literally “flips off the switch”.

Training Within Reality

These first three are very much what is taught in the recent past inside of the Modern Techniques based schools. While these targeted areas do offer excellent hits inside of combat, they are not the only alternatives to excellent hits. There are other areas that offer excellent combat hits and many of them are combat proven and come to us from the “old timers.” They come from gunfighters who were in a very substantial number of gun fights or from guys that documented a substantial number of gunfights. We need to face the facts that the Modern Techniques is a competition based system that put a high priority on a successful marketing strategy and an ability to “score” to help perpetuate that successful marketing strategy. The fact is that forcing the students to only target two distinct areas made targets much easier to score. It is the improvement of the “score” that led people to take the exact same course over and over and over again.

The introduction of Air soft guns to the general public changed all of this. All of a sudden the general public could test everything themselves. This power of testing was no longer solely in the hands of people with an agenda. The information on the realities of a fight that had been held back could no longer be protected. The flood gates were now open and nobody could stop the changing tide. For the critical thinkers out there dumping the status quo was simple. Heck, they were already half way gone just out of common sense. For those people looking to be the best that they could be this often led them back to studying the history of gun fighting and the vast amount of knowledge and combat proven skill sets.

Let’s take a look at some of the things that the “old timers” considered “combat accurate.”

Center of Mass

The definition of center of mass is as follows, “targeting the center of whatever mass that is available.” That means if only a foot is available, target the center of the foot. If only the elbow is available target the center of that exposed elbow. This is all about making a hit. If you target the center and you are slightly off, you will still get a hit. This also means that if you are in low light and both you and the adversary are moving (as a high percentage of gunfights actually come down) you should target the center of mass so that if you are not perfect inside of this difficult situation you will still land a hit. When some of the old timers talked about center of mass, you would often hear them discussing targeting the belt buckle. We need to realize the difference in where they wore their belt buckles. They were not at waist level they were at abdomen level, very close to center of mass. These guys knew the realities of the fight and they had no competition based dogma ingrained in them. Focusing in on the belt buckle gave them a very nice “focal point” at center of mass to lock in on. They understood the seamless integration of sighted fire and instinctive fire and the correct context inside of the fight.

In “Shooting to Live” Fairbairn and Sykes documented six hundred and sixty six gunfights inside of a twelve year period. They saw this one phenomenon so often that they put it in writing “If you shoot a man in the gut, he will most likely drop what is in his hand.”

In a reactionary gun fight, with decent distances, and dynamic movement, I teach targeting center of mass. We need to take back the lost initiative with our speed, movement, and ballistic effect. We need to put a hit on board! The best way to insure this is targeting the center of mass. As we settle into the fight, our movement, and our increasingly accurate marksmanship, we can begin bringing the shots up into the thoracic cavity.

The Central Nervous System (CNS)

In my Modern Techniques training of the past they always scoffed at the CNS stoppage for anything short of the cranial ocular band. They use to hold their pinkie up and bob it back and forth while saying “go ahead try to shoot it” all while laughing. While entertaining, it was not the truth of the matter. For a CNS stoppage you do not have to disrupt the pinkie size spinal cord, you can often disrupt the CNS by making a hit to the spinal column. A good representation to the size of the spinal column is a 1 1/2 inch side of a typical two by four. When you look at this way, the CNS stoppage is not near as difficult as the Modern Techniques portrayed it to be. But once again we get into the whole “scoring” philosophy and it’s misrepresentation of the facts.

When we train the CNS should always be taken into consideration, just as center of mass needs to be taken into consideration. The CNS stoppage is a prized and worthy goal. For a squared up adversary, by all means target his center line and his CNS. If the adversary is bladed we need to balance our targeting of the CNS with our targeting of center of mass.

The old timers recognized this and even developed tactics and techniques to target the CNS. The zipper is all about targeting the CNS. We are looking for a five to six shots, vertically stringing right up and on the CNS from pelvis to cranial ocular band. The level of “stoppage” is dependent on the height of the hit to the CNS. Hit them low and you take their mobility. Hit them higher and take away their mobility and their arms. Hit them even higher and you take oh so much more. There is very few shots better than a CNS stoppage. Only the “apricot” could be better.

The Pelvis

I am not even going to get into this old tired debate. I will just repeat the advice of Jelly Bryce given to Dave James. “Son, if you shoot a man in the nuts…..he will leave you alone.”

I have not had one male student question the validity of that statement.

There is so much time spent on debating “the pelvic girdle.” What is usually missing from the debate is the huge number of blood vessels in that area. This brings up another old timer philosophy, “more holes in, more blood out, lower the blood pressure and win the fight.” You may not break the pelvic girdle and take away mobility, but you are putting holes in and lowering the blood pressure.

If we look at pure speed of the draw and the irrefutable law of physics and economy of motion, the very fastest that you can be is a draw stroke right out of the top of the holster straight to the adversary’s pelvis (Elbow up/ elbow down.) Combat proven!

More Reality to Think About

Resetting the OODA Loop

The OODA loop is the decision making process that all human being make. It stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. It takes the average person .2 -.25 of a second to cycle through this decision making process. The old timers used this phenomenon for everything that it is worth. The old timers proclaim that any hit on an adversary will buy you .2-.25 of a second. Each hit resets the adversary’s OODA loop. This goes right in line with Suarez Internationals philosophy of “Any hits on them is good for you and bad for them.” This also goes hand in hand with shots to “less then optimal” regions of the body, such as the pelvis. We are not worried about the effects of one hit we are looking at the cumulative effect of five to seven shots, within the first two seconds of the fight, dispersed out all over the body. We are using the phenomenon of the resetting of the OODA loop to get as many hits on board as possible until the threat has been stopped.

Multiple Traumas to Multiple Systems

The “old timers” were big on staying away from tight groups. They believe in multiple traumas to multiple systems. When the reality of the fight becomes clear this philosophy happens naturally. The biggest thing about them is that they did not worry about a perfect group. They were fight focused not competition focused. This is why this article is a lecture in every one of my Point Shooting Progression courses. So many times I see that concern about the loss of a tight group when we begin pushing the limitations, so many “shaking of the heads” and “looks of disgust.” That is until things are put into perspective. Once the “Combat Accuracy” lecture has been given all of the marksmanship based egotistical nonsense just melts away. Only then can we get down to the serious business at hand.

“Face” the Facts

While targeting the cranial ocular band has some benefits, the major down fall is that this requires more precision than most situations will allow. We need to accept the reality that any hit on the adversary’s head it a darn good hit! Sure, make you focal point the bridge of the adversary’s nose, but realize that a slight miss is still a great hit. When we talk about resetting an adversary’s OODA loop any shot to the face has to be a major reset. While I have no proof of this, common sense tells me you just bought yourself more time than just .2 - .25 of a second.

The Neck

In my Modern Techniques school I was shooting a drill at twenty five yards. When we walked up to the target I had one perfect shot dead center into the throat. As they marked it a “three points down” I could not help to think how absolutely stupid that was. Here was a perfect fight ending shot and it was scored as a “peripheral.” Where is the reality in that? I blew out the esophagus and the spinal column.

I do not know about you all, but the last place in the world I want to get hit is square in the neck. Common sense tells me that a neck shot is a winning shot in most fights.


It’s simple any shot on them is good for you and bad for them. It may not be a fight winning shot, but there is a whole lot more coming and it is coming fast and accurately. Stay fight focused, not score focused, spread the love, and shoot them to the ground.

Combat shooting is nasty business. You are not going to be perfect, you are going to fight within what ever the situations allows you. You will need every edge that you can get to be the very best that you can be. You need to be able to fight inside of the realities of the fight, not inside of the made up realities of the recent past. Learn from the very best that had no agenda…..look to the history of the gunfight and seamlessly integrate the best of the old with the best of the new.

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Not a problem at all SNB!

My hope is that folk might read this thread, and the associated 'Jane's' thread, and by that learn something that allows them to be more functional and better increase their odds of street survival as against people who mean us all harm.

Your posted lecture underlines my second part as related to being 'Down Zero'.
I've actually read your lecture before, IIRC at Warrior Talk, and it all just makes sense. Truth.

Last item though, hopefully the video and my time line analysis of it will once and for all end the question and debate by people who are unable to get their mind around carrying in 'Condition One'.
How many threads have we had here at on that subject just in the past 4 months alone. It's unbelievable! And folks actually argue reasons not to carry as such?! Huh?

Myself I run 1911s exclusively. It's what works best for me on the whole. Personal preference. They are not the best nor the worst. It's just an option that right now for my lifestyle works for me.
All of my handguns are kept and carried as in C1. Period.

Don't like or understand how the 1911 hammer & safeties system works, fine. Get a Sig P226, Beretta M9 or some other type handgun with a hammer release safety. Then load it up and get yourself to Condition One...As _before_ walking out the door of your home.
Or run a Glock if not some other type of striker fired handgun. Same thing. Condition One.
Even a revolver...A modern revolver not some old timey reproduction that is normally run in cowboy action events...And carry that too as in Condition ONE!!

People who are not doing so simply because they don't understand how their gun works, and does not work!, and thus have a 'feeling' or emotion of fear about carrying with a round chambered...makes no rational sense at all.

In fact that ignorance and thus fear is quite costly, as is shown in this video. Every quarter second and half second and full second counts against your own life survival odds, as in relation to threat distance and hit count opportunity.
Anything other than Condition One is short changing ones own self. A handicap. Why would anyone think it reasonable and rational to handicap themself for no good and valid reason is beyond me.

People who think or imagine themselves being able to 'Israeli Draw' AND still beat the 2 second clock AND perform equal to them self with a Condition One draw (!), are plainly fooling themself. Hogwash.

The streets do not suffer fools lightly.
Ask anyone. The streets cannot afford it.
Thus neither can fools afford to be foolish, when among the streets.

So with all this said I hope folk have gained a better understanding of handgun self defense as it specifically and _directly_ relates to A) Time, B) Distance, and C) Shooters ability to impart stopping power for purpose of self defense and ultimately survival.

- Janq

· Premium Member
20,252 Posts
It has been requested that a copy of this thread be placed in the "Reference" forum. I agree that it is good reference material. That version, closed to discussion is located here.

· Registered
1,112 Posts
Janq, you are absolutely correct when you talk about the necessity of pure speed when you are inside of the reactive gunfight. There is no time to rack your slide when you have already lost the initiative.

Bad guys are not stupid! On the most part when you are aware and you have "made them" they will deselect you and move on. Put the reality is that there is no way to be aware 100% of the time. All the badguys are looking for is that one moment when you are deep in condition brown. Their goal is to get the drop on you to such an extent that you have no choice but to comply. When you are starting out from such an initiative deficeit giving away any sort of an edge (such as not carrying one in the chamber or carrying your gun in a manner that you can not get to it quickly) is a huge mistake......possibly a mortal mistake.

People that preach such things are usually people that simply "do not know what they do not know." Their most common misconception is that they will never be caught in a reactive situation, that they will see the trouble coming, and have the time to get their gun into play. When you study the true dynamics of a fight this misconception becomes very clear. The problem is that all of the competitioned based training that has been taught since the 1950's made everyone believe that they would never be in a reactive situation and that they would dominate the encounter from a proactive position. That's what shooting ballons, plates, and paper without any concern for incoming rounds will do. The crucible of FOF has has virtually decimated that myth.

Timing is Everything

When it comes to responding to a lethal threat from behind in the reactionary curve, timing is a very important part of the equation. The timing of your response should be dictated by the level of your lost initiative. The appropriate response while being “behind in the reactionary curve” could be very different from the response of being “way behind in the reactionary curve.” As we look at this timing concept it is plain to see that we need to have many different tricks/tools at our disposal. These tricks invariably all work within the concept of the OODA loop. The bottom line is that we need to regain the lost initiative if we plan on getting into the fight.

How we regain the lost initiative can really vary. It can be regained by patiently waiting for your break, with movement, deception, distraction, feigned compliance, ruse, and Metsubushi (the throwing of something in the adversaries face.) But, no matter what tool you use the ability to make the trick work comes down to the timing of the execution.

If you are only slightly behind in the reactionary curve the timing of an immediate action drill (IAD) can work to very good effect. That is, if you practice your IAD to the point that you can execute it, on demand, under pressure, at the subconscious level. When there is some space to move, the dynamic movement draw stroke with well rounded point shooting skills is the very core of self defense with a handgun in my eyes. If there is no space, going to an IAD that integrates H2H and the use of an offensive weapon can be used to good effect.

If you are caught really flat footed and the bad guy really has the drop on you, biding your time, working your tricks, and waiting for the perfect moment to attack is a skill set and understanding that we must own. We have to understand that this is the situation that the bad guy is looking for, where they have the drop on you so badly that you have no choice but to comply. Whether you comply or feign compliance is a very personal and situational decision. One thing is clear… not allow yourself to be brought to the second crime scene.

It is all about the timing. When it is “go time”……..GO!

The First Second

Inside of a gunfight there is no more important time period than the first second of the fight. As we look at “timing” the first second of the fight may not be the first second of the encounter. But when we decide to commit to the fight that first second had better be good! It needs to be a skill set that has been programmed in at the subconscious level. A skill set that comes to you by autopilot, one that occurs automatically, all while being goal oriented. The first second must be ingrained past the point of being task oriented. If you are task oriented you will simply be too slow. Goal oriented is the only way to be the very best that you can be inside of the first second.

If we look at just one possible response like the dynamic movement draw stroke. There are twelve separate things that need to be accomplished for a solid one second response. If we have to “task orient” on those twelve things the one second goal is history. But if we can fluidly move through those twelve separate tasks, at the subconscious level, while being goal oriented, that one second goal is there for the taking.

What is the goal “To hit and not be hit.”

Your timing may be impeccable, but without the knowledge, the training, and the subconscious programming of your initial response, that impeccable timing may become a mute issue.

They say the average gunfight is three seconds….. I want mine to be substantially less. I want six or seven hits on board in two seconds. Inside of one second to get my first hit and one second to put five or six more solid hits in the adversary.

You will never be the best that you can be, if you do not put in the work on that all important first second. A number of the guys that I train with can put hits on board, from concealment, with dynamic movement in around .75 of a second. The methodology is out there!

Do you have the knowledge?
Will you put in the work?
How will you do inside of the first second?

· Banned
5,373 Posts
The "Tueller Drill", for me, is not so much a drill as a way of driving home the point that even 7 Yards is too close for someone to be unless I'm dealing with a parapalegic.

Sadly, most of the people I deal with are within 7 Yards. Thus, I have to MOVE and move now. There is a common misconception that you have the time to draw and fire if someone is 7 Yards from you armed with any type of contact weapon. For me, after learning how fast that 7 Yard gap can be closed by a determined attacker, I want more room. Sadly that is often not an option.

I tend to favor multiple hits on target, starting low and working high, as I have a chance to disable my attacker by striking the pelvic girdle. There's no guarantee, just as there isn't any guarantee that I will strike the heart. Thus, multiple hits seems to be the answer best suited to putting a bullet where it will do the most good in this type of scenario.

Thank you for posting this. Take care and stay safe.


· Registered
6,312 Posts
I've never been in a gunfight, but I've had to draw many times, been places where guns were fired in anger and brandished, been in contact with the criminal element, and last, have studied real incidents and those who know through experience. My observations lead to the following thoughts of this thread:

The 21 foot drill is impractical for the vast majority of encounters. It's not real world as we know it today. Most defensive scenarios are at 'bad breath' distance, arm's length, or spitting distance.

Multiple BGs are more of a concern than they used to be.

Getting off the X is great, as long as you're not cornered in a cluttered room, between cars, etc.

Training and gun games are great, but can we really train for every possible scenario? Cover the bases, know the foundations, be ready to adapt and overcome.
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