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Discussion Starter #1
This is a hypothetical thing, for the most part.

To preface, my father has a rental property that also serves as his brothers home. Half of the property is rented, to at this time a good tenant. The other half (its a duplex) is where my uncle lives, and by contract, can live rent free until he dies (Long story, I wont go into the details), essentially my dad supports my uncle as well.

There are alot of undesirables that comes in and out of my uncles, all either drunks or on drugs, and my dad, who is going to be 64 has to run them out on a weekly basis, sometimes with police assistance. For the most part, these guys are just loud but leave, but my dad keeps making the statement that he feels one of these days he will be stabbed or attacked dealing with these issues, and I try to go with him whenever I can to be of assistance. Also let it be known that due to a shoulder injury, my fathers left are is practically useless

So onto the scenario.

Say we are at the apartment, and we have to run out one of the undesirables, but this guy is just going crazy, the police are called and could be minutes away. The guy grabs a weapon, and starts for us (for sake of discussion, a knife or a baseball bat) . Knowing that the weapon could be used as a deadly device, and we are unable to get out of the place I draw and he drops the weapon, at which point, he keeps coming towards us. He is ordered several times to stop but refuses and advances farther, say within 10 feet or so. What do you do? The fear is that maybe this subject maybe advancing in an attempt to disarm and use your weapon for his gain.

For another part of the discussion, say he is unarmed but comes as a threat. He is getting loud and maybe violent, at what point would it be justified in pulling a weapon?

In both of these we have to assume that my father and myself are the only to capable of defending anyone, my uncle is only 100lbs and frail, both my father and I are both 5'8"-5'9", both around 230.

In Ohio, self defense is allowable to defend yourself or another as long as the other would have had the right to defend themselves in the first place. We also have the castle doctrine, but in this case that would be null since that is not our residence.
 

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The situation you described is why carrying a non-lethal alternative is a good idea. Once he drops the weapon deadly force is going to be difficult to defend. Not saying impossible, but difficult. If he possessed no weapon at all, drawing your weapon is going to be difficult to justify as well. The use of pepper spray instead of lethal force will show you did what you had to, to protect yourself and dad without using a gun.

On a side note, you dad, being partially disabled might stand a better chance defending the use of lethal force in the scenario above.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
All points well taken. Thats the great thing about this site, getting all perspectives. I need to look into some less than lethal types of things to work with.
 

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Another thing that is going to come into play is whether or not your uncle (legal resident) invited this guy inside. I don't know what agreement exists between your dad and uncle or your uncle's capacity, but look at it from the other guy's side. He is invited in. You and your dad arrive (he doesn't know you two) and order him out. He decides to defend his friend (uncle) and himself...

Just something to keep in mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
In this case, the guys all know that my uncle has no actual say in who can come in. Basically, they can visit, but they try to move in. Thats when we have to get them out. The guy they are having issues with, well, lets say he knows he is unwelcome to move in, yet everytime he gets out of jail, he moves right in.

That is the case now, the guy is there, we are doing the legal steps to get him out. My dad makes daily visits there, he checks on the house, gives my uncle an "allowance" every day and such. My uncle does not work, has no income, he is alcohol dependent and is not really able to stand up for himself. This same guy that we are working on getting out now, has beat the crap out of my uncle in the past.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Oh let me stress, I am in no way in power to do anything at this house, I just ride along to be a witness and to be there. I do not go with any purpose other than to ride along, but if the SHTF, I will protect my father if needed.

We almost always use the police to get these guys out of there, and it normally works.
 

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Ah, got it.

Any possibility of a "restraining" order against this guy? With the history of assault and having to have officers come out to remove him in the past, you should have enough cause to get one. Then he can be arrested any time he even shows up. Would definitely check into that.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
We can only issue trespass warnings, but he has to be there when the police is there, and he normally runs before they arrive (this one specific that we are having issues with now). My dad is thinking of going to his P.O. and advising him that the guy is not wanted there and see if they can help.

I keep using the word "we" because I am giving my dad as much info as possible. In the case of CHL, my dad is not and will not get a license even though he is able to. He is not an anti, but he does not feel the need. He knows I have a CHL, and when or if I am carrying, he has no clue.
 

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As a former LEO, let me give you my perspective. When an incident is occuring, you need to call the police and they need to arrive before you get there. It is their job and responsibility to maintain order and deal with unruly subjects.
Arriving at the scene and trying to handle it yourself is just asking for trouble. Eventually someone will be injured or killed. Up to now you have been lucky that one of your uncles friends hasn't pulled his own gun.
If you arrive and the police still aren't there, wait in your car until they do. If one of these guys trys to attack you in your vehicle, he is the aggressor and you are justified. If you jump out of your car to confront him, that makes you the aggressor.
It's time to charge this guy with trespassing, appearing drunk in public or disorderly conduct.
 

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The less than lethal option is a great idea. I also think you should obtain an RO. It may only be a piece of paper, but it's a piece of paper that gives the police more opportunity to make an arrest. I also wonder how his PO would react if he had an RO out against him.

As far as you being mostly an observer for your dad, you might consider taking a camera along. Some people are more likely to behave themselves if they know you are being taped. It's hard to argue with video evidence in court. On the other, the presense of camera could also have an opposite affect on a few people as well. Keep in mind if the tresspasser decides he's going to fight, you may have to drop the camera or use it as a weapon. Good luck.
 

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As a former LEO, let me give you my perspective. When an incident is occuring, you need to call the police and they need to arrive before you get there. It is their job and responsibility to maintain order and deal with unruly subjects.
Arriving at the scene and trying to handle it yourself is just asking for trouble. Eventually someone will be injured or killed. Up to now you have been lucky that one of your uncles friends hasn't pulled his own gun.
If you arrive and the police still aren't there, wait in your car until they do. If one of these guys trys to attack you in your vehicle, he is the aggressor and you are justified. If you jump out of your car to confront him, that makes you the aggressor.
It's time to charge this guy with trespassing, appearing drunk in public or disorderly conduct.
Clarification requested....
So lets say for sake of argument that his father(albeit foolishly, but none the less) has called the son for help rather than 911(lets say easy speed dial or something). Son hangs up and calls 911 and heads out. Son arrives, knowing full well dad is in danger, yet the police have NOT arrived yet. Do you still expect him to sit in the flippin:confused: car?
 

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In regard to the first scenario where you've drawn on the guy because he had a weapon, but he's still advancing toward you even after dropping it, you cannot let him get close enough to you to be able to take the gun from you. I think it would be foolish to try and spray him with OC after already drawing on him. By the time you've drawn your OC and sprayed, he could already be on you taking your gun. Having been sprayed in the face by OC myself during training, it takes a moment for it to really set in and he could cover alot of ground during that time.

Even unarmed, the guy knows you have a gun pointing at him and is still advancing toward you. You have to assume that he is crazy and/or intends to do you serious harm. This in itself could be justification of deadly force. I would give verbal commands to stop and possibly back away if feasible, but if he crosses the 20' mark I would fire.

This of course is assuming you were justified in drawing your weapon in the first place. If not, all bets are off.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Normally when we go, we do not know if anyone is there or who will be there at any given time. The trip is made at random daily, basically due to having a life and other things to do, so calling the police is not always an option. Discussed getting a RO, but they wont issue one due to no criminal charges. My uncle refused to prosecute for the assault that happened, the subject is on probation for other reasons.

I am going to look at less than lethal next payday, either OC or a civilian model of the Taser.
 

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Is it at all possible to get a security system in place, with video feedback available on your web browser? A simple system would work, if broadband is available in your uncle's area. That would save you a lot of fruitless trips and enable you to catch any unwanted "tenant" on the premises. Even a NANNYCAM.
 

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consult with an attorney on the issue that if your father had a power of attorney/ legal guardian for your uncle. This might allow you to be able to file more charges against this scum bag and take on this scum bag in a better legal authority.

just an idea but its going to take a lot of work to get this leach out of your rental.

a basic alarm that allows you to hit a panic button on a remote might help your father if he had to go alone or you get disabled from this crazy mooch.
 

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The use of pepper spray instead of lethal force will show you did what you had to, to protect yourself and dad without using a gun.
I believe this is something I'm going to start considering just for this exact reason. I have no desire to shoot and kill anything or anyone unless I have no other alternative. If the none lethal measure is an option, I think it's a better choice for that kind of scenario. Time for some research. Gotta find one that's compact and can be carried easily.
 

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One suggestion: This is why a lot of folks won't do the rental thang themselves. This is one reason why a decent property management group is worth its weight in gold. Avoiding physically being there when you know it's likely to blow sideways on any given day is 95% of the battle ... by avoiding it in the first place. Just a thought. Doesn't mean you need to sell. But it's a suggestion that you think hard about whether you must absolutely physically be there when you know that place draws a hard crowd that's entirely likely to get the better of you at some point. I'm just sayin'.

You can also adjust your procedures. Have an iron-clad procedure for security set up. Pre-screen all applicants. If you're going to meet someone physically, first ensure you've run the background check and called references for character and prior rental history; and, be with a second person during brief, fixed hours, when you'll bee interviewing people. Have a property management group deal with your pre-screenings. ONLY those who make it through the sieve get to see you, let alone get to know the address of the place you're renting. That sort of cordon will help eliminate much of the "pus" that's oozing on your front entryway.

For the most part, these guys are just loud but leave, but my dad keeps making the statement that he feels one of these days he will be stabbed or attacked dealing with these issues, and I try to go with him whenever I can to be of assistance. Also let it be known that due to a shoulder injury, my fathers left are is practically useless.
Serious difference in strength/age/ability, generally speaking. It's called disparity of force. Fairly easy to point to and to use as legitimate support of justification for action, in any legal tangle, assuming the totality of circumstances fully supports your actions.

... undesirables ... guy is just going crazy ... police are called ... guy grabs a weapon, and starts for us ...
At that moment, you need to react effectively or (likely) die. Doesn't mean "draw" necessarily, right now, but it means effectively stop the threat. (Look into H2H, force-on-force combatives and similar training, as it'll help clarify what is likely to be relied on in such situations of CQB). Decide NOW whether you'd take such a situation at face value or not, 'cause you won't have time at the moment it occurs.

(for sake of discussion, a knife or a baseball bat)
Doesn't really matter, as all the pieces are in place for you (anyone) to legitimately believe your life is being seriously threatened, IMO.

He is ordered several times to stop but refuses and advances farther ...
Terminate the threat. Now. He has given every single possible indication he's going to terminate you, now. Waiting is entirely likely to get you killed.

... say he is unarmed but comes as a threat.
Repeat these words: You. Don't. Know. That.

You simply don't. You don't happen to see a man-made weapon at this point, but you can't possibly know that a person who is display every manifest intention of threatening you has failed to plan for his basic nature by arming himself with something you cannot see. To loll about and mull it over in your head at the moment an attack is going down might very well get you killed. Caution, since you're already behind the curve, here, and desperately striving to catch up and get into the driver's seat.

That being said, the suggestion by others of a non-lethal defensive weapon might be worthwhile to consider. Depends on how you've trained, and on how the situation goes down, as to whether it'll be useful in the given situation. No telling, as of now. All you can to is study, train, and run these scenarios through your head until you are prepared to handle the ugly variety of them.

He is getting loud and maybe violent, at what point would it be justified in pulling a weapon?
In Oregon, it's basically the "reasonable man" standard, though we have no "Castle" type laws.

So, for me, essentially the gauge is when I reach the point that I believe my life/limb is at risk of loss, I am absolutely justified in taking the precautions I deem are required to halt the threat against me.

Now, the wrinkle obviously is that nobody judging my actions after the fact is absolutely required to agree with me. He/she/they might have political motivations to disagree, might have had a bad burrito, might have had someone say something disparaging within earshot that suggests the situation's unworthy. Such a person might well disagree to the point I get the gas or chair. Such is life, with CHL.

I'll go with my intuition, with what's required at the moment, knowing what I've been counseled and read and been trained. With how I've been trained for such situations, I will worry about the ramifications after the immediate threat has concluded.

Now, I'm aging, I'm disabled in my hip/leg, I'm not running anywhere. And I'm in a situation like you're describing, with a person fairly obviously threatening me, manifestly with the intent, will, physical ability, physical access and (likely) weapon to do me deadly damage. You do the math. I have.

My basic gauge is that if I feel threatened, if I make the legitimate demand someone exit my property because I'm feeling threatened, and then that person subsequently ratchets up the attack another few degrees ... well, then, that's the moment I'm going to refuse the attentions of this attacker (as evidenced by his/her/their manifest actions, words, body language and patent refusal to acknowledge a legitimate demand by a citizen to be left alone).

How your state varies, in this regard, I do not know. An attorney who is competent in the area of self-defense and the legitimate use of lethal-force in your state should know, particularly if that person has a long history of successful criminal defense against spurious charges by the State in such situations. Time to speak with yours (assuming he/she is competent in this area).
 

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You said your uncle can live there rent-free until he dies, by contract. Maybe worth trying to get out of this contract. If your uncle is the only other party to the contract, should be easy. If some third party is involved, maybe not so easy, but in this situation I would consider moving the uncle elsewhere (perhaps under your dad's own roof if it is tolerable) and sell the duplex.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
A few details I did not mention but will now, for the discussion, which I find rather informative and thank all contributors.

The house my uncle lives in, is a duplex, as stated. My great aunt bought it for 2 of my uncles who she had always adored, and it was put into a trust. One of my uncles has since passed on, and the other one still lives there. My dad use to "manage" the property, as in, he would take care of all the details for my aunt. The trustee that over saw the place is nearly 85 and wanted to give up the trustee ship, and to do so, the house had to be placed into someones name. The terms of getting the house are that my uncle has to live there until he dies, no if's ands or buts about it.

The one side that is rented is actually to my sisters ex-husband who also keeps an eye on things, he does all the maint. work to the place and also pays.

The side my uncle is in has four bedrooms, so in order to get extra money coming in, to pay the bills (which my dad does out of his own pocket when there is no money coming in), he rents rooms. Usually he gets decent people moving in, but they dont stay long, and the freeloaders come back every time a room opens up.

Right now we are in the process of getting a trespass order against this scumbag that does not want to leave. The only way we have found, by the information from the local LEO's is that we have to order him away and warn him in the presence of an officer, so that there is actual proof he has been warned. Everytime we call to have an officer come out, the guy leaves before they arrive.

None of us wants to have to go hands on with anyone, none of us wants to use force, we just want it peaceful.

As for installing monitoring equipment, its not something that would be effective, they would steal the cameras and sell them. The scum bags already stole all the copper wire out of the garage and sold it for beer.

My dad wants to get out of it, and has consulted an attorney, but the only way is to find someone else to take it over, and you tell me how many people would under these terms. The house cannot be put into my uncles name for 2 reasons: 1. He does not have the mental capacity to deal with things (which is why my dad has guardianship or power of attorney, I am not sure which) and 2. My uncle owns a huge debt to the sheriff from when he was in jail, anything he owns, they will take. He had suffered a massive head injury while in jail for not getting dog tags, and the sheriff is saying they are not responsible, even though the charges were dismissed.
 
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