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Discussion Starter #1
Good Morning Everyone.

Here's a something that happened to me yesterday that has made me think, and I have the feeling you guys might have some valuable input/insights into what could have gone better.

But first, a little bit of background information. I'm a single airman still living in the barracks, so my personal weapons stay in the armory (not by choice) so I usually don't carry during the week (Of course, when I'm off base during the week, I'm usually in a bar or restaurant and cc isn't legal in Arizona in any establishment that serves.) My girlfriend lives in Tempe, home of ASU. This is a very liberal, very anti-gun college part of town. Almost everyone in her complex is a student at ASU (or recently was).

I went to my girlfriend's apartment for dinner Wednesday night. Once I got there I relaxed, played with the dog (She has a pug, and while I don't really like dogs, I feel bad for this one, it's in a kennel whenever she's in school), and admired my girlfriend while she tried to cook a steak dinner for me. (She's a veg, it was VERY interesting to watch...) Ate dinner, watched a little TV, went to bed. About 0030, maybe 0100 I hear a loud noise and I sit right up in bed, wide awake. To me it sounds like a large caliber pistol being fired. I roll out of bed, grab my knife and check the rest of the apartment. Go back to the bedroon and grab pants, go check apartment again and look through windows. Don't see anything outside but things feel bad. I grab her keys and go out front. (She lives on a second floor apartment, with an open walkway/balcony around each apartment.) I waited in the shadows, and looked around. I didn't see anything so I cleared about fifty feet each way of her apartment and then went back to the shadows. Waited there for about five minutes and then went inside.

Flash foward to Thursday morning. I haven't slept well at all, but I get up and get ready really early (0630), when we walk outside we find police cruisers everywhere and half the front lawn marked off in police tape. When we get around back to the parking lot we see the entire lot taped off as a crime scene. Seems there was a dead body two cars away from my car. I speak to one of the patrolmen and realize I'm not going anywhere anytime soon. (My car ended up being locked in that crime scene until nearly 1800.) So we go back upstairs, get interviewed by a detective, my girlfriend is cleared to go.

The girlfriend goes to class and I sit around her apartment. Play with the dog for a bit and then wander outside. End up having a three hour discussion with the officer on perimeter security outside her apartment. I ended up finding out a couple of interesting things: I was the only person who ID'ed the noise as gunshots and reacted (other then turning on the lights), and almost everyone was talking about how scared they were, this was the third murder in Tempe this year.

My biggest regret is (other then not being armed) is not checking out behind the building. If I had just gone and even looked around the corner I would have seen the body and there may have been a possibility that I could have done something for him.

A1C Lickey
 

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Having seen/heard similar situations in Wichita, my first thought is that w/o a gun, and someone else armed & watching your back, the poor guy/gal would have to bleed while I called PD. If the shooter lives in the apt. bldg., they may have a seriously vested interest in making sure the person they shot "stays dead", and might not be averse to shooting a non-uniformed (that might not be much of an issue, either, as long as you're alone!) aid-giver. A really hard call...... I love trauma, and bad things do happen to good people, but going out alone......Maybe God was saving you from your best intentions. Lots of things to assess; ya'll be careful! :wink:
 

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I agree with Rob, going out to investigate a shooting is dangerous, armed or not. You don't have back-up and the BGs may. You likely won't know if and where the BGs are and they may know where you are.

It's a tough call, this is not like you have an opportunity to stop something, the damage is done already and you didn't even have a gun. The best thing in this situation is call the police and let them handle it.
 
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Much potential for the unknown - and certainly on your own not fully armed - probably as well you didn't scout further.
 

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Even if i packing im still not going looking for trouble. I mean if i see it and im involved or close enough that ive been seen then ill jump in to help.

But If its like you say middle of night then im sorry i wouldnt go looking to many places for someone to hide in the Dark and shoot you .

I belive in looking out for #1
 

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Sir, not a wise call, but shows your heart is in the right place. Get an AZ CCW permit - you can, regardless of state of residence. Find a place with lockboxes, (mailboxes etc, or something similar), outside the base, and rent one for whatever CCW peice you can afford on the pitiful salary the military pays nowadays. As log as you follow both AZ law and UCMJ, you'r cool. And enjoy your stay in AZ, sir!
 

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I think he did the right thing and the decent human thing by carefully going out to scope things out. He was being pretty aware and careful.
Dangerous? ~ probably a bit dangerous...but, it's a good that he did.
I can't come down on somebody for showing some good honest bravery. Though I AM concerned for what COULD HAVE happened to him.
If it was me that was laying out there shot...I sure would be praying that some good person would show up sometime before I expired & gave up the ghost.
He probably couldn't call 911 just because he heard an unknown loud noise.
I know I would have gone out also. If I thought it a gunshot (but, was not sure) I probably would have put on my BPV before I went out.

There could have been a shot innocent robbery victim out there who was seriously/fatally wounded and that person may have needed quick emergency help and an ambulance. I say Good Job & well done.
Next time...(of course) be careful and be extra careful you don't trip over the body. :smile:
 

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Tangle said:
I agree with Rob, going out to investigate a shooting is dangerous, armed or not. You don't have back-up and the BGs may. You likely won't know if and where the BGs are and they may know where you are.

It's a tough call, this is not like you have an opportunity to stop something, the damage is done already and you didn't even have a gun. The best thing in this situation is call the police and let them handle it.

+1

Why don't you have a gun at your GF's? If you can't carry one, at least have one locked up and accessable.
 

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I agree with most of what has already been said. Going 'hunting' at night, and that's what you are comtemplating, with only a knife is a most dangerous thing to do. Even armed I'm going to investigate my balcony and my immediate area only, not go looking for possible trouble securing the neighborhood.
 

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Noooooo!

Bud White said:
Even if i packing im still not going looking for trouble. I mean if i see it and im involved or close enough that ive been seen then ill jump in to help.

But If its like you say middle of night then im sorry i wouldnt go looking to many places for someone to hide in the Dark and shoot you .

I belive in looking out for #1
MY first instict for survival is Never Bring a KNIFE to a Gunfight!!!

Next, speaking as a former Infantry Captain, let me say that while I admire your gumption, pluck, courage and desire to help that was possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Well, okay the second dumbest. If you'd been one of my troops in my infantry outfit and I heard you pulled this stunt, I'd have my First Sergeant AND the Battalion Sergeant Major haul you through a bed of red hot coals. I don't know what you do in the USAF, but I'll wager you're not a PJ because they're just about the only zoomies qualified to prowl and growl in the middle of the night, armed with anything, including a knife and expect to not only survive, but actually win a life or death contest in the dark.
 

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ExSoldier762 said:
Next, speaking as a former Infantry Captain, let me say that while I admire your gumption, pluck, courage and desire to help that was possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Well, okay the second dumbest.
ExSoldier, you must have had a sheltered life. That doesn't even show up in the top 1000 of the dumbest things I have seen in this crazy world. :wink: :biggrin:

While I would probably choose not to go out and prowl around in the dark, depending on the circumstances, I might go outside the door, onto the balcony or otherwise take a quick look around from a point of safety. Probably not, though.

I can guarantee you I would be in a fire engine red threat level and the hair would be up on the back of my neck....
 

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Innocent?

Bumper said:
ExSoldier, you must have had a sheltered life. That doesn't even show up in the top 1000 of the dumbest things I have seen in this crazy world. :wink: :biggrin:
Actually, Bump, I have been around the block more than once. It's just that I differentiate between SEEING dumb things and DOING them myself. I was an Infantry LIEUTENANT, remember. And so I was often followed by my troops just out of curiosity to see what STOOOOPID thing I was gonna do next! Having literally survived that phase and grown older and a bit wiser thru subsequent phases I feel gives me a bit of latitude. The old saying that was quoted by one of my favorite authors, Robert A, Heinlein is SO true: Live and learn...or you won't live long....
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Okay I guess I definately have to clear several things up. I know what I did was extremely STUPID, however, if in that situation ever again I'll do it all over. I am also the luckiest and unluckiest SOB I have ever met. In the shootings, knife fights, and accidents I have been involved in I have always come out ahead. Unfortunately I have one of those names, faces and work ethics so distinctive that both my First Sergeant and Commander know not only my name, but my nicknames as well. (Just a slight aside, but ExSoldier, when the police tried to contact me and couldn't they contacted my shop and my shirt happened to be around when they called. I've already had this conversation with him. It started something like this, "L13 that was one of the bravest things one of my troops has ever done, but what the F*CK were you thinking?")

First off I was in uniform (mostly). The pants I pulled on were BDU pants, and I was wearing a squadron tee. The brainwashing hasn't worn off completely, I still sleep in a t-shirt and unmentionables. But I'll be honest, the BG had already shot one person, I doubt me being in uniform would have meant anything.

I do have an Arizona CCW, and I carry whenever it is practical for me to. I don't have a firearm at her apartment because I only own one at the moment, and I don't leave it there because she lives in Tempe, I live on base. For those of you not from Phoenix, it's about a forty-five minute drive.

I've done some special maintenance to my girlfriend's apartment. The lights in front of her door now come on by the switch inside only, not after dark, and the light on the walkway is unscrewed. I know this sounds dumb, but she has windows lining almost the entire front of the apartment. A quick glance and you can see everything (because of ambient light from the courtyard) but from down below you're more in the shadows. Also before I slipped out the door I got to the floor and looked throught the windows in the corner I was going to slide into. (The windows run all the way to the floor there, I doubted anyone would be looking six inches above the ground.) So I was reasonably sure that when I slipped out the door that there were no BG's in that area and that if they came that way I would have the advantage of seeing them first because of the shadows.

Now believe me I know what I did was extrememely stupid. I had just bit the bullet (yes, that pun was intended) a few days before and asked my girlfriend to marry me. I wasn't too happy going out there were I could very likely get dead. But (by the way, this is how I explained my actions to the shirt, and how I'm probably going to explain them to the Major tommorow) when I joined up I was told I am now an Airman 24/7. This weekend specifically I've been told to be ready to leave at a moments notice. And that it is our duty as members of the armed services to help and protect those weaker and less fortunate then us. Granted zoomies normally do that by dropping firey hot death from above on the enemy, and sometimes we don't. But I was under the impression that there was a possible wounded individual out there, and I have the medical training to help them.

The one piece of information that I got from the police that I really wish I didn't know was that she bled to death. If I had gone around the corner I would have seen her, and there is a good possibilty that she would have survived.

ExSoldier, I'm kind of curious, so what was the stupidest thing you've ever heard of? And your troops would actually follow you? We usually run whenever possible when we see an LT coming, it's just so much safer! I'm also a fan of Heinlein, but this quote has always rung closer to me (paraphrased from "Starship Troopers") "When a kitten fights a wildcat you don't expect the kitten to win, but you do expect him to go down fighting."

A1C Lickey
 

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So what do you do if you're sleeping and you wake up when you hear a loud crash and crunching metal?
A vehicle is on fire in front of your home & you're not sure if there are people in there or not? You can't see in 'cause it's starting to fill with smoke.
You're right there...what do you do?
Call the fire department...let the sucker burn & go back to sleep? You're not sure if there is anybody trapped in there...or not.
You just call the fire department or do you go over to see if you can get a lady that's knocked out on the vehicle floor and maybe her two kids out of there???
I mean the gas tank could blow up at any second.
You could be KILLED or horribly burned/maimed for life.
The leaking gas and open flames are just exactly as unpredictable as a possible stray bullet.
Probably Better just to let the occupants of the vehicle burn to death.
I guess that would be the best thing to do since I'm not a trained fireman and I'm not looking to take a trip to the morgue or the hospital burn ward.
Thanks for the helpful advice folks.
 

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Apples and Oranges

QKShooter said:
So what do you do if you're sleeping and you wake up when you hear a loud crash and crunching metal?
A vehicle is on fire in front of your home & you're not sure if there are people in there or not? You can't see in 'cause it's starting to fill with smoke.
You're right there...what do you do?
Call the fire department...let the sucker burn & go back to sleep? You're not sure if there is anybody trapped in there...or not.
You just call the fire department or do you go over to see if you can get a lady that's knocked out on the vehicle floor and maybe her two kids out of there???
I mean the gas tank could blow up at any second.
You could be KILLED or horribly burned/maimed for life.
The leaking gas and open flames are just exactly as unpredictable as a possible stray bullet.
Probably Better just to let the occupants of the vehicle burn to death.
I guess that would be the best thing to do since I'm not a trained fireman and I'm not looking to take a trip to the morgue or the hospital burn ward.
Thanks for the helpful advice folks.
QK, I think the scenario you posited is vastly different from AC's and he even admits he knows it wasn't the brightest idea in hindsight. I think we'd all have taken action in the scenario you propose, but this other thing was the literal equivalent of taking a knife to a gunfight and we're very fortunate not to have lost AC's input on this forum had there been a tragedy. There are certainly lessons to be learned here, for all of us. I also applaud his courage and pluck and desire to help just as I stated in my first post, I just think it was unwise. But I wasn't there and HE was. That's another important point. Easy to be the armchair quarterback here in South Florida (even if the airconditioning IS off in my class...hot as blazes) but it's different if it's your neck on the line, right?
 

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AC1 Lickey, Sir,you did what you felt had to be done. I wasn't there so I can't add my comment as to what I would have done. I can simply state that from an outsiders perspective,all else being equal,I would have done things different. That being said,I could give you advice as to what to do but seems that you've gotten enough of that. I hope that by some of the comments made in this forum you will not think that you are a fool,dumb,an idiot,etc. That,sir was not "the stupidest thing that I have ever heard of." I will,at this time,not share that with you. But it does have something to do with the very "famous" phrase"THIS DIRECTION TOWARD ENEMY". Anyway,I feel that a person will do what they feel is right. If I agree with it or not doesn't make it "stupid". Odviously to some here,it does. Before I get censored,let me just say that I agree with QKShooter in post #15.(Only he said it better that I could(would) have. Stay with us. I always want our men in uniform to feel free to input. I have learned from this forum and I'm sure that you will also.---------
 

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I think that it's great that we can all agree to disagree on some thread topics. If we all felt exactly the same way & had the identical opinion on every topic & subject then we would not need to talk about anything or discuss anything at all (in fact) we would not need a web forum at all.

:biggrin: The Forum would maybe look like this:

Thread Topic: By QKShooter ~
The Sky Is Really Super Blue Today!

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Bud White ~ ( X ) Real Nice Blue! Good Day For Shootin'
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ExSoldier762 ~ ( X ) I Agree!
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rssz ~ ( X ) I Agree!
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Bumper~ ( X ) I Agree but, your services are no longer needed QK.
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Tangle~ ( X ) VERY BLUE ~ Decent Shade Of Blue!
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FortyFive~ ( X ) I Agree!
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P95Carry~ ( X ) Jolly Nice! ~ An Azure Type Blue Though Old Bean!
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Betty~ ( X ) QK...I agree but, you're still kind of a dork.
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D. Armstrong~ ( X ) I really couldn't say anything about that anymore. :rolleyes:
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Euclidean~ ( X ) I'm fairly familiar with the color spectrum & and the principle of refraction of light...actually the deep blue color is more of an optical illusion. The atmosphere is not really tinted blue but, only appears to be blue to the human eye. But, I perceive it as blue also.
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QKShooter~ ( X ) I agree with myself...sort of. :dead:
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So I'm very glad that we're all different but, mostly 'like minded" when it comes to R.K.B.A. & carrying "whatever" trusted firearm for our personal protection.
Revolver or Semi~Auto ~ In Kydex or in Leather (though LEATHER is probably better! :biggrin:) ~ & Caliber .380 right on up to Bud's New S&W 500 Boomer.

That is the STRONG common bond that we all share & is much more important than how any particular member feels about one incident or what they would (or would not do) in any specific scenario.
Let's NEVER forget the Big Picture that brought us all together here in the first place.
The real enemy is those folks that would deny us our right to Self~Protection...our individual & collective freedoms...and the pursuit of our happinness. Let's get some milage out of that pursuit of our happiness too! Be happy. Let's learn as much as we can about good concealed carry & personal defense.
We are all a fantastic and amazing bunch of people. Many more cuts above the whining sheeple.
Just my opinion that I even really like the folks that disagree with me often...as long as they are decent about it. I learn a lot here and I appreciate all of you and ALL the other highly valued members that I neglected to include in my incredibly dumb and silly example - up there.:silly:

Bless You All!
 

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P95Carry~ ( X ) Jolly Nice! ~ An Azure Type Blue Though Old Bean!
Just my cup of tea old man! Well said:biggrin:
 

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There you go--sayin' something that I agree with again. The one thing that I have found out reading these"pages" is that I"m usually right,but when I'm not then someone else is usually right,about the same amount of time that I'm usually right.Hey!, funny how that works out about even.-------
 
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