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Discussion Starter #1
With the recent discussions about bug-out gear I've been thnking about long guns. Something in .357 like the lever action Winchester clones.

What sort of range can you expect? Are these powerful enough for hunting?

I've got a 10/22 for small game, and a 12g pump for home defense... but something longer-ranged might be nice... and I'd rather not add another type of ammo to the mix.
 

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357 Carbine isnt to bad it packs close to the punch of a 30/30 i belive i read out of a 16" barrel.

Just like in
a handgun it would get the job done if needed. Course some will argue with this but i would only say the 357 in a carbine would be good to 100-125 yards unless you were running some barn burner homebrew loads.

At that point it is losing a lot of power just like the old 30/30 and should be considered marginal at best.

I would prefer a full on rifle for longer range but the Pistol caliber carbing come in mighty handy to and also cheep for plinking at least my 9mm Storm is
 

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Bud refers to the CX-4 Storm - I enjoy mine and it does make best use of the 9mm round - it is possible to stretch that to 100 yards and still stay on the paper.

Re levers tho - yes - I reckon my Win 94 in .357 is plenty useful to 100 yards - not the tightest of groups, maybe as big as 8" including the odd flier but still - enough energy left to be of use. I have a Marlin 94 also, in .44 mag - that is well useful and actually has the longer barrel of the two - definitely a useful tool.

Then one other thought - I have the Marlin Camp 9 and Camp 45 - not the prettiest of guns but the .45 is still well useful and of course once again - using the common pistol round.

I think tho going back to .357 - I'd try to find a Marlin version '94, as a longer barrel is good IMO. I think Savage IIRC have a nice option too - and great value.

Pics - I don't have a pic of the Camp 45 but it looks same as Camp 9.











 

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tanksoldier, Don't know what you use for CCW,but if you carry a 9mm,.40S&W,or a .45ACP,you should take a close look at the Beretta Storm. With a red dot sight,I can put rds. on a 6" pie plate from 100yds out,very easily.(my weapon is .45ACP). The .357 is a good rd. if loaded with stiff charges and heavier bullets(180 and above). I have seen them kill 250-300 lb hogs without problem using hardcast bullets.---------
 

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for close brush a pistol caliber is ok, but any med. distance is gonna leave ya behind. 120 yrds + Also a .45,9mm .40 isn't really a good choice for deer size game.
 

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Carbine

tanksoldier said:
With the recent discussions about bug-out gear I've been thnking about long guns. Something in .357 like the lever action Winchester clones.

What sort of range can you expect? Are these powerful enough for hunting?

I've got a 10/22 for small game, and a 12g pump for home defense... but something longer-ranged might be nice... and I'd rather not add another type of ammo to the mix.
I had a .357 carbine from Winchester M94 Trapper lever action and I got rid of it. Preferred my M94 .30-30 anyday. The thutty thutty has been the tried and true standard for what? Over 100 years? It's benign looking and in fact stands as an American ICON. Good medium sized (game) medium range or bush range hunting rifle. Versitile. If I wanted a real combat carbine (and I do, so this one is on my list) I'll go for this: http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-socom.shtml It's a bit expensive, but heck, what's worth having is worth saving for. I have a good hunch that we're going to be needing all of this stuff in the near future. At least judging by New Orleans. I live in Miami and went thru Andrew (and six more over my lifetime including Katrina as a CAT 1). This is a new era of storms and probably terror. We can't count on anybody but ourselves, but that'll be enough if we can draw from our frontier heritage.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
All: Thanks for the info.

If I change my CCW to 9mm or .40 I might consider the Kel-Tec Sub 2000... any word on these? I've heard good things other places.

I like the .357 as a defense round, and I'm not lookng for a real combat firearm... I'd just buy an SKS and be done with it.
 

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Kel-Tec Sub-2000

tanksoldier said:
All: Thanks for the info.

If I change my CCW to 9mm or .40 I might consider the Kel-Tec Sub 2000... any word on these? I've heard good things other places.

I like the .357 as a defense round, and I'm not lookng for a real combat firearm... I'd just buy an SKS and be done with it.
I had one of the original Kel-Tec folding carbines in 9mm and I had Browning grips attached so it could use Hi-Power mags. Then I bought a STACK of 30rd mags for not much $$ at all. It was reliable, accurate and portable. I loved that little gun, but it was a plinker for me at the time. NOW I wish I had one! I'd prolly like to get the .40 version and pick up some ultra Hi-Cap Glock mags for that. Then I could combine it with my M27 40.
 

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Pistol for LARGE Game?

rocky said:
for close brush a pistol caliber is ok, but any med. distance is gonna leave ya behind. 120 yrds + Also a .45,9mm .40 isn't really a good choice for deer size game.
Then of course there is the new 454 Ruger Alaskan.....Snub nose that can drop a Grizzly.
 

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Sorry guys but I'm going to throw my $.02 in here. If you're going to spend $500-$600 why not get yourself an AR-15. I bought a stripped lower reciever (Bushmaster) from my local gun store for $145 then bought a kit from www.model1sales.com for $475 for the M4 setup and put it together in about 2 hours having never done it before. The gun is not match grade but I can shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yds. and the collapsible stock let's my 9 and 11 year old kids shoot it.
 

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Marlin .357 with 20" barrel and set of peep sights [no batteries required] should do a good job for your purpose.

I use a 44 Special/Mag with the same setup, and the load I use, uses a 180gr JHP at 1250fps from 4" handgun [44 Special], and I'll guess [will chrono Monday] around 1600 to 1700fps from the 20" Marlin.
 

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I've recently purchased an 1894 in .44 Magnum and I do not regret it at all. I don't think it's the idea gun by any stretch of the imagination but for me it made a lot of sense:

1.) I plan to start reloading in the upcoming months. .44 Magnum is a chambering that lends itself to much diversity and a good place to start

2.) I will always love revolvers, so getting rifles in revolver calibers makes a lot of sense for me

3.) It fits right behind my seat

4.) No one will question it as it could easily be a deer rifle where I live (lots of short shots)

5.) Easily maintained

6.) I like lever action rifles for no good reason

7.) I honestly feel that I can probably lay out as much meaningful fire with this rifle as I could with something more "evil" looking

I think I had a thread on this somewhere....
 

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Euc, Something else is that even the 16" carbines will hold at least 7 rds. and most will hold 9 or 10.(44spec rds.)This is true for the non .30-30ies and the like. That's not bad firepower.
 

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Euc if you want high capacity get an AR15 with collapsible stock. But remember that FIREPOWER isn't volume of fire, it's HITS. Accuracy beats noise everytime. I'd rather the satisfying thump of the .30-30. But OTOH, there is a certain balance in having a handgun chambered for the carbine, too. That's one reason the .44-40 caught on in the old west. But that was a pretty insipid round. If I were going to go this route I'd get a revolver in 45LC and a lever action in 45LC. Maybe the Ruger Alaskan and you'd have three guns while carrying only two.
 

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If you are using rifled slugs (or have a rifled barrel) out of your shotgun, you will be able to reach out and touch someone to 100 yards. And if you can't kill something with a 12 gauge, you should be running like hell!

Personally, I'm looking for a M1 Carbine - loaded with softpoints it will definitely do the job.
 

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M1 Carbine?

AutoFan said:
Personally, I'm looking for a M1 Carbine - loaded with softpoints it will definitely do the job.
Why would you want a carbine in such an anemic round? The M1 Carbine was something of a JAM-A-Matic, too, especially the Glenfield reproductions and those made by other manufacturers. I've fired this round in a SA handgun and it's a pretty soft kicker. Your soft point ammo (I've only seen military ball myself), has to have enough ooomph to expand, and I doubt the round will generate this from factory ammo. Handloads might work well, though.
 

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I vote for the lever-action. Eather .357, .44 or .30-30. Its relyable easy to reload, and is compact, and has power.

I have a 94 Winchester that was made in the early 40's, that my grandfather shot over 60 bucks with. I myself have taken 4 bucks with the very same .30-30. My Dad has taken 2 blackbears with this cartrage.

He can accuratly cycle his lever-action .30-30 Marlin as fast as some can shoot a semi-auto AR15. I am more than confident that this rifle would send a human into the next world, without a problem. Is anyone as confinent about a .30 cal, 9mm, .40 or .223? Personaly I would heasetent shoot a scrawny yote a long range with a .223 (well mabe, yotes deserve only to be shot on sight). So you might only have a 8-10 round tube instead of a 30 rd mag, but were talking home defence not a war.

I love the .30-30 so much its my main barrel for hunting big game, with a handgun.







'
 

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ExSoldier762 said:
Why would you want a carbine in such an anemic round? The M1 Carbine was something of a JAM-A-Matic, too, especially the Glenfield reproductions and those made by other manufacturers. I've fired this round in a SA handgun and it's a pretty soft kicker. Your soft point ammo (I've only seen military ball myself), has to have enough ooomph to expand, and I doubt the round will generate this from factory ammo. Handloads might work well, though.
Well, it is an anemic round compared to a 7.62x39 or a 30-30. Compared to a handgun round out of a carbine length gun, it is smoking.

The GI versions do not jam, so long as the parts are in spec and you maintain it (just like any other gun).

It is very easy to control in rapid fire (soft kicker). I hunted deer in Michigan with softpoints, and the deer always seemed to go down with a shot or two. The softpoints are available from (at least) Federal and Remington.

The real problem with the round is a lack of modern bullets designed for its velocity envelope. Finding a hollowpoint designed for it would be awesome.
 

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Im goin with ExSoldier on this one...

Since you are going to buy a carbine, do it right and leave the ancient crap to the sportsmen out there.

You are wanting the maximun efficient tool in a SHTF scenario. There is none better than the AR with the collapsible stock.

Reasons...


quick reload cabability that beats any lever action hands down...

you can carry many mags of .223 in a nice compact container like a mag pouch and the bullets are small and not near as heavy as most others...

ammo is everywhere....even cops and military use it...

rifle is packable, put it beside an Alice pack with the stock collapsed and you wont know your'e humping it....

Need to clear a house ? Leave the stock collapsed...its more handy than a longer rifle...

Accuracy. Flat shooting out to 300 yards when the other calibers mentioned have rainbow trajectories...

Need a scope ? Put in on. Dont need it ? Take it off. Takes all of a minute and the zero is repeatable.

Parts availablity. Its easier to get AR componets and they are everywhere...

A monkey with a pin punch can change out any part in the lower reciever. Can you change the firing pin in your lever action carbine when it breaks ?

Can you change out the barrel if you sit on it by accident and bend it ? With the AR you can chunk the top half in the lake and replace it with another ...

You can mount a bayonet on it. Dont laugh...in a SHTF scenario, that bayonet had more physcological value than you think. Some trying to take your stuff may think you wont shoot them but NOBODY will risk getting a bayonet in the gut.

Its better suited to shooting form a barricade. The pistol grip allows more of you to stay behind cover when shooting.

Need more reason to do it right ?


Sure..,lever action carbines are great if thats all you have. Since you are starting from scratch, why not use some new technology ? Dont handicap yourself with the last centurys stuff.
 

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Curse me for buying guns that fly under the gun grabber's radar that I already know how to use more effectively.

I guess I could go throw down $700 for the AR 15 parts and bolt it together, and then spend $550 on a complete set of spare parts sans lower receiver. Oh and spend a while tweaking it too.

Or I could just spend $700 and get two complete lever action rifles that will outlast me and their next 3 owners.

Oh btw I CCW a revolver most of the time. I love being told how I'm going to die horrifically for it...

I tell you what. You put me out in the field with a lever action rifle against some hippy who hates guns and arm him with any rifle you want. I win.

You put me out in the field with a .22 caliber pistol against the same person in the same situation. I still win.

You put me out there with my lever action rifle against a US Marine armed with the fantastic plastic gun of the week. I lose horribly and quickly.

You give me all of that Marine's Equipment and give him a rock. I still lose horribly and quickly.

No, when I really want to "do it right", I'll get that bolt action .308 with the forward scope mount like Cooper told me too.

Don't get me wrong I want want want a lot of the cool EBRs (typical...) and I even want to learn how to use them (not as typical...), but it ain't about the hardware it's the software and I'm not talking about marksmanship or shooting technique. I'm talking about the ability to be able to pull the trigger, which I have, and the ability to do it with no hesitation whatsoever under the worst conditions imaginable, which I don't have and probably never will. That's the reason I win against the hoplophobe every time, that's the reason the Marine wins against me every time.

At any rate, even the very best in the world who have the best software available have been known to spray and pray when it goes down. My uncle as an LEO saw two officers shoot in self defense, real veterans with lots of training and expertise. Both of them emptied their gun into their assailant, and both of them commented they just did it, not out of fear or anger, they just did it even though they knew better. See that's okay when you're a sheedog. Darn a Marine emptied a magazine into a mosque. Shoot, he might have killed another terrorist. Darn.

Now in my situation as a civilian, if I do that, well lookie there I just killed someone's grandmother. Or, heaven forbid, a 15 year old kid.

I'll stick to meaningful, controlled firepower thank you. The lever action rifle moves as fast as my target acquisition skills do. It scores as many hits in 10 seconds as my SKS does. Maybe someday I'll be so magically good that the manual action actually slows me down, but that's not the truth for me at the moment.

Okay rant over.
 
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