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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I live outside a small town between Salinas and San Jose, California: lot's of gang activity and murders in Salinas and a disappearing police force in San Jose. Our small town has a few bad neighborhoods and has seen some murders, but I can't recall an armed holdup until now. Someone riding a motorcycle walked into a Rite Aid with a shotgun in an attempt to obtain drugs. He did this at 9:45am on a Monday, broad daylight, in a very busy little shopping area. Not a very bright guy

My wife and I, both CHL holders, have talked a number of times about what we would do in this scenario. The store employee is at great risk, but the best outcome is the robber walks away with some drugs and is subsequently apprehended by LE. Worst outcome is a drugged-out robber kills the store employee and might shoot someone else on the way out: there is no way to predict the future. I'm resigned to seeking concealment/cover, calling 911 and retreating unless the threat of deadly force materializes.
 

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I was taking care of house plants for my dad, while he was playing snowbird. Walked in one day and immediately noticed the TV missing. Without thought, my gun came out and I went into hunt-mode. Got about 10 steps in before that little voice in my head that was screaming "DUMMY!" (but something else that the filters don't allow), finally registered. I realized I was doing exactly the thing I tell students to not do. I backed out of the house, left the garage, dialed 911, and waited.

It was a difficult thing to do. But in the end, I made the smart choice and let the professionals come do what they are paid, trained, and insured to do. I was under no immediate threat and if there was still someone in the house, they weren't going anywhere easily. So, the risk calculation became crystal clear. Even still, in those initial moments, reason and logic aren't really available.

In the end, as is predictable, the house was clear and the baddies were long gone. On the upside, one of the officers noticed the decals on my truck and asked for a card. He came out for a couple of our shoots. So I made money on the deal. :danceban:

What I guess I'm trying to say is, if nobody's life is in immediate danger, be a good witness and let the professionals do the work.
 

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I would have to follow my gut on that. If I thought the robber was going to kill the clerk or anyone else, I'd have to try to stop him. But if my instinct was that this was a quick grab and run, I would melt into the background and keep my hand near/on my weapon with the weapon still concealed. Most stickups are in and out and over before anyone realizes it. Rarely does the weapon get used other than as a threat. The store's insured, it's not my place to protect the store's merchandise, and any surprise interference on my part could possibly make the situation worse. Also, for all anyone knows, there's an unannounced partner in the back or off to the side keeping us covered in case someone draws or does something else.

Not saying this is all right and wrong, just that this is what my thought process is based on my experience.
 

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One time I was out rabbit hunting and got a call from my girlfriend at the time she ask if I got pick her up from work because her car was in the shop. So anyway I told her that I was going to stop by my house drop my dog off and feed him and get change. I give her my keys told her to go on in and I'll be right in. So while I was getting my stuff I her a scream in side the house I grab my shotgun was putting shells in it on the way to the door. I came through door like swat team member seen her up on the table and said where he at?? She said (He under the frig) I said what are you talking about? Then I hear THE MOUSE IS UNDER THE FRIG I wanted to kill her then.. But it was funny after thing about later..
 

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Remember, it's 'self defense', not offense. The vast majority of responsibly armed citizens never train to be proactive and as such, remember your place in the grand scheme of things.
 

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Just because you hear about people who were not charged because they shot at a robbery suspect does not mean you will get a free pass. After taking a shot at someone, you are very likely to get arrested and possibly charged. Suddenly, you're on trial for murder because you tried to be a hero by stopping a crime that probably only cost the store a couple hundred bucks. You, on the other hand, have to pay for an attorney for the duration of the trial which is likely to cost thousands, if not more. Unless the situation has deteriorated very badly to the point where the robber is shooting people (or about to), keep your distance and watch the professionals do their job.
 

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Im many states, deadly force is also justifiable to protect others. That doesnt mean drive across town to go shoot someone who is in danger, but if you are in the store and shoot the robber who was threatening somoene else's life, you're probably going to be ok. However, this is also a case of knowing your state laws, and/or being able to accept the consequences of your actions.
 
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The question we have to answer in such situations is something like, "In my best judgment if I don't do something is someone going to die (or be badly hurt) here and now?"

The acronym for that is IDOL - Immediate Defense Of Life.

Understand that you will never be able to get enough information to have absolute certainty. But then the law does not require that. It does require your best judgment given the information you have available at the time.

Not an easy process, but it is a necessary one.
 

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I think of my gun as a personal nuclear option. If I use it there's a good chance that I'll be burned along with the bad guys, so it's only used when I'm sure that I'm gonna be burned otherwise.
 

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As with most what if scenarios, my answer is "it depends". I'm not going to initiate a gunfight in order to protect a business's till, or jar of oxycontin. Unless the threat to life is clear and imminent, the risks are many, and the reward, nonexistent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The question we have to answer in such situations is something like, "In my best judgment if I don't do something is someone going to die (or be badly hurt) here and now?"

The acronym for that is IDOL - Immediate Defense Of Life.

Understand that you will never be able to get enough information to have absolute certainty. But then the law does not require that. It does require your best judgment given the information you have available at the time.

Not an easy process, but it is a necessary one.
Note that I live in California. Almost no concealed carry, justice system heavily biased against gun owners in general. I believe I'd be in big trouble in the referenced scenario unless either a)the threat was directed at myself or a member of my family or b)the BG has moved beyond the threat of violence stage. Different story, however, if I'm at the drug counter next to the BG when he starts waving the gun around; no opportunity to retreat and threat is immediate - moves the whole thing out of "third party in jeopardy".
 

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Each situation is slightly different so predicting exactly what to do can be difficult. Just because I have a legal concealed weapon doesn't make me a one man crime fighter. First choice will always be call 911, be a good witness if I can and let the police handle it.
 

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On the other side; a woman was in a cell phone shop..... two armed young robbers came in ... she decided she was leaving and turned to walk out the door. They shot her ..... due to all types of things related to the shooting, she also lost her hands, and her legs, and can't do much ... and will be in some very long therapy. Her life is changed forever.

I would hate to think I could have done something to prevent that, and didn't . Choose wisely in your choices and the potential results .... read the situation and make you choices based upon that. That's my .02 cents.

There is NO "one answer" to fit all situations.
 
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The question we have to answer in such situations is something like, "In my best judgment if I don't do something is someone going to die (or be badly hurt) here and now.
That's not the case in every state.. some states have very different "third party" laws.
Kentucky has a "under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be" for use of deadly force for self defense, and a
"Under the circumstances as they actually exist" for use of deadly force concerning third parties.
 

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All of these scenarios are why I always send the wife in first........:embarassed:

I just tell her....Hey this looks bad...you go in and if there is trouble....I have the gun and you can text me and I'll call 911. :wink:

If she resists.....I just ask her if she wants our kids to be orphans......I mean really....we can't BOTH go in there..and I have the gun

So far it's working.....:image035:
 

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That's not the case in every state.. some states have very different "third party" laws.
Kentucky has a "under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be" for use of deadly force for self defense, and a
"Under the circumstances as they actually exist" for use of deadly force concerning third parties.
The first phrase is another way of saying 'in my best judgment'. I think the second phrase should be challenged if it hasn't been already or challenged again if it has because it is too strict a requirement and impractical to apply in reality.

You still have to answer the question about what happens with non-action either way.
 

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I live outside a small town between Salinas and San Jose, California: lot's of gang activity and murders in Salinas and a disappearing police force in San Jose. Our small town has a few bad neighborhoods and has seen some murders, but I can't recall an armed holdup until now. Someone riding a motorcycle walked into a Rite Aid with a shotgun in an attempt to obtain drugs. He did this at 9:45am on a Monday, broad daylight, in a very busy little shopping area. Not a very bright guy

My wife and I, both CHL holders, have talked a number of times about what we would do in this scenario. The store employee is at great risk, but the best outcome is the robber walks away with some drugs and is subsequently apprehended by LE. Worst outcome is a drugged-out robber kills the store employee and might shoot someone else on the way out: there is no way to predict the future. I'm resigned to seeking concealment/cover, calling 911 and retreating unless the threat of deadly force materializes.
Rite Aid is a large corporation with a whole lot more resources than I have. They've made the decision to not secure their stores or protect their employees. They don't hire me to protect their locations and I'd give them every penny's worth. Mr Birdbrain Biker high on drugs can empty their till and their narcotics stash and it's not going to be an issue for me.

I carry to protect me and mine.
 

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That's not the case in every state.. some states have very different "third party" laws.
Kentucky has a "under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be" for use of deadly force for self defense, and a
"Under the circumstances as they actually exist" for use of deadly force concerning third parties.
Yep ... here , it is in belief /perception of the shooter (good guy) .... that there was a threat of serious injury or death at the time.

Not what George may have thought, but what the person who shot thought at that moment.
 
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