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Discussion Starter #1
Don't take it the wrong way....I'm HAPPY that this kid & his girfriend are OK BUT, read on.....................just don't make fun of the guy.
He is untrained but he is still on our side of the 2nd Amendment fence.

One "concealed carry" citizen and his girlfriend were robbed at knifepoint by three teenage thugs.
He never pulled out his pistol and they were lucky to walk away.
This (below) is what he had to say about carrying Israeli Style ~ Chamber Empty.
Meanwile my personal opinion obviously is that he was just not ready to carry at all & Israeli Carry and "empty chamber" had not a whole lot to do with how his particular robbery went down.
Quote:
"One thing that contributed to me hesitating pulling the XD is that I am still not comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber.

If I had pulled it, I would have had to depend on these kids being freaked out enough to back off enough so that I could have racked the slide. But since they had me braced, I did not want to take the gamble.

I was wearing a sport jacket. These kids really had to be pretty clueless not to have noticed how careful I was emptying my pockets and not lifting the jacket. The car keys were in my hand, but my cell phone was in my right front pocket. My gun was right on top of it. It was an effort to get the phone out of my pocket without exposing the gun."
 

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We need to track this guy down and invite him here I'm thinkin'.... :stupido3:
 

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He obviously has no business carrying at this point in time....IMHO that's worse than not carrying at all. He's damn lucky they didn't find and take the gun from him...could have been much worse!

Cocked & locked, cocked & locked...practice, practice, practice.....repeat!
(or whatever fits your firearm)
 

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Deke45 I knew that there was something about you I was going to like.
Your post echos my thoughts exactly.
 

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An unloaded gun at a gunfight is worse than no gun at all.

You've just escalated with no ride off said escalator.
 

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I gotta admit, I too felt uneasy at first carrying a cocked and locked 1911. I had previously carried my Beretta, which is a double-action, with a chambered rd., and was not concerned with accidental discharge. The 1911 though, having to wear against my body, made me a little nervous about rubbing that safety to the off position.
 

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seems 1 he needs for weapons familiarity, training
2 needs a gun he can feel confident and safe carrying
3 needs to work on his situational awareness
4 got lucky this time someone was not looking to hurt him or his GF
 

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Yep...the unlaoded gun syndrome. Oops. Lucky to be alive.
 

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I have to agree. If you aren't ready to carry with a round in the chamber ready to fire, best not to carry. Also if you do not have the correct mindset and attitude, don't carry. I talked to someone who was carrying, but wasn't sure they could actually shoot another person. They figured that they could just show the gun and the BG would run away. I told them not to count on that, and it was probably better if they didn't carry until they resolved their issue with possibly having to shoot another person. I'd hate to see them pull out their gun, have it taken away and used against them and possibly other people.

-Scott-
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Security Blanket Carry Syndrome

This is exactly what happens when folks carry a firearm as a security blanket that "they know they will never need but, it's good to have it anyway" and that thinking WORKS OUT JUST FINE...until they actually NEED it & then everything falls apart!
He was so mentally unprepared & untrained ~ that it is actually GOOD that there was no round in the chamber because IF the thugs would have "got hold" of his pistol then they could have easily "caught a few" from his own firearm.

At the very least his firearm is discovered and STOLEN along with his $$$ & then another deadly firearm is "out there" & in the hands of Bad Guys!
They will then use it to rob 20 more innocent people.
 

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"All I have to do is rack the slide." I've heard that one a few times. As proven in this scenario, you may not have have the time or the ability to do so.

I've said it before.... if you think your carry gun is so unsafe that you carry it unchambered, pick another gun.

I'm glad the man and his girlfriend came out this situation OK, but I hope that now he has this rare second chance, he seriously rethinks his carry options. :frown:
 

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It’s extremely easy to armchair quarterback something like this, but you know what, there but for the grace of God go I. I empathize with this guy because this could have been me!

There are three things I’ve learned about this whole concept of concealed carry:

#1. Realize that the use of a firearm is a lifelong skill that one can hone to better participate in modern society. Being a responsible armed citizen is a moral imperative if you are physically, emotionally, and mentally capable of it. An equally responsible decision is deciding you’re not capable of it. It is my personal belief that most well adjusted people are capable of learning these skills with time, but I think no ill of anyone who says to me “I’d rather not be an armed citizen” because this is a free country and that’s your personal decision.

It’s a very simple but deep decision. When you look in the mirror, would you kill someone to save yourself or someone else if there was absolutely no other choice?

#2. Be prepared to discard a lot of your old notions about what is and what is not the proper way to use a firearm. Modern media does not portray the use and ownership of a firearm correctly. Even those of us who were raised in a house full of guns often believe things that are just outright folklore. As children, our parents sometimes go off the deep end on safety to the point where they may instill a fear of the tool in you. I have a lot of this old baggage that I am still struggling with, and I don’t think I’ll ever totally overcome it all. And the more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know.

It’s actually okay not to know everything right off the bat as long as you obey all the safety rules at all times. Gun safety is an easy skill to learn and by far the most important. Be prepared to ask a lot of questions; gunnies love to set you straight when you are wrong even if they tend to be a little gruff about it. But also be prepared to think critically and decide a lot of things for yourself. Collect all the information you can and then act on it as best you can.

#3. Realize that consistent practice is fun and effective. You don’t have to live on a pistol range to learn what you’re doing, and sometimes you have to take care of other things first, but if you keep plugging away at it, it will get easier.

It’s also important you realize that you’re going to have to do some things that you may not necessarily like. Most of the time however, you can practice a lot and overcome an obstacle. I don’t like shooting a semiautomatic pistol but I have owned one and I’ve practiced with it for some time now. It has improved my attitude about the semiautomatic pistol a lot and I’m even planning to purchase another one.

But sometimes you stumble on something that you simply may not be capable of overcoming at the present time. It may be completely contrary to your whole experience and way of thinking.

One of the things I don’t like is the idea of carrying a semiautomatic handgun around with a round loaded in the chamber. I don’t like it because it creates in my mind a potential for ambiguity that does not exist with a revolver. With a revolver you clearly know there is either a round in the chamber or there is not. With a semiautomatic you may have no earthly idea depending on its exact configuration. Unless you have X ray vision there is that ambiguity.

The intuitive way to deal with this ambiguity is to simply not chamber a round and rather require one’s self to rack the slide. At first glance this seems entirely reasonable. However under stress, for someone who isn’t quite in harmony with the semiautomatic pistol to begin with, it is not. I speak from personal experience as I too had considered this option and thought it wise for a time, and then figured out that it was in fact ridiculous.

I was fortunate to figure out I have no business at present carrying a conventional style semiautomatic pistol. I want pull trigger go bang. I don’t want to be fumbling around with a gun I don’t trust 100% just yet. I will be carrying a revolver for some time to come.

I was almost this guy, but I had the great fortune of forgetting to turn off the safety when I took my proficiency examination and realizing that’s not the style of gun that suits me and my needs at present. What I’m going to do to correct this problem is investigate a Glock style sidearm without an external safety that more closely mimics a revolver. This seems to be the more logical tool from my point of view and may provide a transition point into the correct carrying of a semiautomatic pistol.

The gun world is full of brilliant innovations and solutions to every possible problem you may encounter so that you can avoid mistakes and problems like this one. An enjoyable part of the “sport” or “hobby” aspect of firearms ownership is learning more and more about what is out there. There are whole worlds of pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and rifles out there that I’ve never even heard of and I’ve been at it since I was 9 or 10 years old. The quest for the best pistol or rifle never ends, and it’s a lot of fun to try to find it.

Couple this knowledge with knowledge of more effective techniques and you will reap the benefits; otherwise you’re just messing around with a very dangerous toy and no one wants that. Be serious, be prepared to learn, and practice practice practice.
 

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Choosing to carry a gun chamber empty is more of an emotional issue rather than a
distrust of the gun's method of operation.

Some people flat out distrust their own level of competency (usually due to lack of training or familiarity) to the point that they just don't want to accept the responsibility of carrying 'hot'.

Even with proper training and familiarity, they still end up carrying chamber empty. People like this really have no business carrying a gun in the first place. An unloaded gun is nothing more than a talisman or a security blanket that is eventually going to bite them in the butt.
 

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I must wholeheartedly disagree triggertime. Given the chance, a rational human being will learn to use objective information gained from knowledge and personal experience to overcome subjective emotional problems.

In other words, almost everyone is tough enough to get over it and deal with the real world. It doesn't matter if we're talking about guns, math, social anxiety, or a phobia.

I used to be afraid of the dark when I was a child. I'm certainly not any more.

We all have our problems and we can all deal with them.
 

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Euclidean said:
I was almost this guy, but I had the great fortune of forgetting to turn off the safety when I took my proficiency examination and realizing that’s not the style of gun that suits me and my needs at present. What I’m going to do to correct this problem is investigate a Glock style sidearm without an external safety that more closely mimics a revolver. This seems to be the more logical tool from my point of view and may provide a transition point into the correct carrying of a semiautomatic pistol.
That’s one of the reasons I picked Glock as my sidearm of choice. No external safeties to fumble with. Point and click. It’s funny when some people ask how I can have a handgun without an external safety. I point out that it’s like a revolver and you can see the light go off in their head. For some reason some people will except that in a revolver, but not in an auto. I know some will argue that there is a difference because a revolver has a heavier trigger pull. Well, neither a Glock, nor a double-action revolver (nor any handgun for that matter) should be carried without a holster that covers the trigger so I don’t think the difference in trigger pull matters.
 

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Euclidean: You can disagree if you want to, but I'm speaking from personal experience as a part-time instructor. To this day, even after countless hours of 'pep talks' I still know people who carry chamber empty and still carry their 5-shot revolvers with an empty chamber under the hammer and an empty chamber following it.

When asked why, the usual response is, 'I don't want to shoot myself taking the gun off or putting it on...' which I counter with "keep your finger off the trigger and that won't happen." That ends with a blank stare from the student.

What can you do in that situation? Other than recommend that they leave the gun at home and carry pepper spray instead?
 

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My father would CC a Golt Gov't .380 unchambered. When I asked why, he said he didn't trust cocked n' locked carry. And when I'd show him my little Mustang in my ankle holster, he would say, "doesn't the safety ever slip?"

This is a man who has handled firearms safely and competantly all his life. With as many options as there are on the market, there was no logical reason for him to continue to carry an unchambered handgun.

A Colt Detective Special solved the problem. He carries it with the cylinder full.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Euclidean Concerning Glock

Good Post (up there) By The Way.........
You should be aware that GLOCK semi~auto pistols are not actually "cocked" until the trigger is pulled rearward. So even with a round in the chamber the Glock firearm is not a "striker fire" fully cocked & just "invisible to the eye" type firearm.
They are very safe if you keep the old "fateful finger" out of the trigger guard. That info. might help with your decision to buy a Glock.

Betty ~ JT ~ Bumper ~ Triggertime ~ Scott ~ Armoredman etc.
As Always.......Thanks for your valuable input.

I don't think in this scenario that even a D.A.O. J frame revolver would have helped this guy out too much.
First of all the BGs obviously "got the drop" on him & he was not at all mentally prepared to use ANY deadly weapon.
I am best guessing that he still has that same "victim mindset" even after this incident.
Qualified training and proper instruction is so important.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Just thought of this.
Interesting bit of American History.
Some "Gunfighters" in the days of the Ol' Wild West that carried Colt Single Action type wheel guns made GOOD USE of the necessary empty chamber under the hammer.
They rolled up a paper money bill & stuffed it into their empty cylinder hole.
I don't remember the exact denomination...$20.00 $50.00 $100.00 ??? ~ but that was their "burying money" if they lost a gun fight.
 
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