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Discussion Starter #1
YouTube - Meth Commercial

They've been showing this commercial alot in my area recently and every time it runs I tell my wife it would have been the worlds shortest commercial if I was in that laundramat.

That said I'm not sure there's any place to take a shot. I though maybe as he was running up the asile but the lady W/ the baby is right behind him.
 

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Well, I am in the corner, gun ready, and being a good witness. He comes at me like that, I aim my gun, in a command voice tell him to stop. If he doesn't, I shoot.
 

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Taking a shot given the camera angles would be risky business in my opinion. Even the best JHPs might go through at that range... He comes at me, I fire no questions asked. MIGHT try to side step so incase of a FULL penetration (Through and through) it would hit the sheet metal on a washer/dryer, though once again NOT the best thing... BEST shot would be as the guy in the chair. GET UP and step to the side BEFORE he rushes you and if he still attacks, there is nothing at the wall behind him so that would be the safest shot IMO. Oince again though, I dont see the entire layout of the landromat, so its hard to say.
(Also just a note, the moment he rushed in a grabbed the first guy, Id already be code red, and make the attempt to find a more tactically sound position other than sitting in a chair or just standing there)
~Steve
 

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I didn't see him brandish any kind of weapon. You would most likely get screwed in court if you killed him. However, if he would have touched that baby, I would have shot. To me that's serious bodily harm or death to the baby and justifiable in my eyes...
 

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No weapon on his person required as in this instance, in specific.
His hands were his weapon and he'd already used them twice to assault and overpower two other persons in the laundromat.

But I too would not draw a firearm.
Instead I'd draw my can of simma down, OC/CS, as kept by my side in it's holster or my rear pant pocket and I'd starch this mans shorts.

Upon spraying him I'd quickly pocket the spray and retreat.
If no retreat is available then a very _QUICK_ soccer kick to the groin or a heel kick to the inner thigh would suffice to stun him further if not put him to the ground (assuming the OC/CS) did not already do that job for me so that I can side step/slide him and evac myself from being cornered.

I from the street, as behind cover if not concealment, dial 911 and report my experience while maintaining direct eye contact on the building and/or attacker inside.

My firearm remains holstered.
I reholster my OC/CS...And my knife as well remains holstered or pocketed.
No blood letting lethal force tools involved, nor required.

Key though to all of the above response is to develop _before hand_ a 'plan'.

A thought process of A = B+C/D. As well to develop inner peace as under pressure. An ability to in the immediate be able to calm ones self and act rather than 'react'. Actions as controlled decisions rather than reactions as by 'chance' results including panic, which is what was depicted in this clip by all three victims.
Reactionary _panic_ is what is most common for persons under these conditions because they simply do not think of these types of life & living factual occurrence possibilities.

As I have long said not every incidence requires or is even advisable to involve lethal force.
Never mind penetration possibility. A much greater potential is that the citizen would out right _MISS_ and drop a shot. The background is a mother with her two children as in front of a plate glass window leading out to a public street.
A miss is of much higher and most plausible concern. Especially considering the vast majority of gun owners and gun carriers, including police, do not train with any regularity what so ever.

Having non-lethal force tools at hand AND being of a physical condition to be able to respond to conditions (ability to run and/or strike if necessary as without necessarily going into a protracted 'street fight' tussle) is in many cases more functional and overall prudent than simply leaping to the top most security response protocol of drawn guns.

- Janq
 

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Weapon or no, in SC, you are allowed to use your weapon if you believe yourself to "be in fear of imminent loss of life or GRAVE BODILY INJURY." You can also defend someone else if you believe they are in the same danger and "any reasonable person" would do the same. My gun would be drawn and in my lap. If I had a clear shot, I'd take it. If he ran at me like that, I'd aim and command, "Stop or I'll shoot!" One more step and he's in a body bag.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If he ran at me like that, I'd aim and command, "Stop or I'll shoot!" One more step and he's in a body bag.
Go back and watch the commercial again. when he's running down that back aisle towards himself look at the background. There's a lady and a baby and I think a couple of kids dead in your line of fire. You really can't shoot there.

I'd OC him and (if at all possible) leave
 

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However, if he would have touched that baby, I would have shot. To me that's serious bodily harm or death to the baby and justifiable in my eyes...
Absolutely. There are things that one doesn't do in my presence and that's on the list.
 

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Minor suggestion on combative re:Jang

But I too would not draw a firearm.
Instead I'd draw my can of simma down, OC/CS, as kept by my side in it's holster or my rear pant pocket and I'd starch this mans shorts.

Upon spraying him I'd quickly pocket the spray and retreat.
If no retreat is available then a very _QUICK_ soccer kick to the groin or a heel kick to the inner thigh would suffice to stun him further if not put him to the ground (assuming the OC/CS) did not already do that job for me so that I can side step/slide him and evac myself from being cornered.
- Janq
Just some thoughts. 1)Use more than one combative strike, follow up on the kick with an additional strike or two before attempting to "put him on the ground;" 2) beware of the OC/CS you just soaked him with as you attempt to put him on the ground--it might get back on you.

What I think you are saying is stun,disorient, disable, , and git-outta-there. For a young athletic and trained fellow as yourself that sounds like a plan.
 

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What I think you are saying is stun,disorient, disable, , and git-outta-there. For a young athletic and trained fellow as yourself that sounds like a plan.
I'm 55, 6'2" and weigh 285 - I don't do "run". I can disable or kill an opponent with one move of my left hand and index finger. Grip, Draw, Curl, Pull - repeat last two steps as necessary.

I won't take half measures on the street. There is no such thing as a fair fight or giving the other guy a chance or an even break. I intend to go home unharmed and will do what's necessary to accomplish that.
 

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Just some thoughts. 1)Use more than one combative strike, follow up on the kick with an additional strike or two before attempting to "put him on the ground;" 2) beware of the OC/CS you just soaked him with as you attempt to put him on the ground--it might get back on you.

What I think you are saying is stun,disorient, disable, , and git-outta-there. For a young athletic and trained fellow as yourself that sounds like a plan.
Hopyard,
You took the words right out of my mouth.
I don't run(cane)and have neck/back injuries. If I have to engage someone it will be done to MY BEST ADVANTAGE! Enough said.

The situation in the video could become lethal at any point, especially for an infant/child. Having worked with meth addicts I would not recommend the OC/CS as there is a good record of it not working well in that context.

There are a number of other valid points (collateral damage etc.) already made. I'm still thinking on what my reaction would be. I know what my FIRST thought was, but with the bystanders I'm not sure it is the BEST response.

Tracy
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The laundromat appears to be laid out in one rectangular room W/ a bank of washing machines down the middle and dryers on the back wall. As the meth head comes in the door it looks like there's an older lady right infront of the door, a guy just to the left of the door the baby lady in the back left corner and the doppleganger in the back right corner.

so three corners of the room are full of collateral damage. Unless you're in the front right and you tag him as he's running along the back wall you're kinda screwed.

On the upside if he circles the building like he did you've got plenty of time to draw before he gets to you (assuming RF corner). I don't care how meth'd up he is you dump 4 OZ of Fox Labs down his throat and you're gonna change his plans for the day.
 

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Layout of the laundromat: At 00:20, you can see that there is an aisle - mirror to the one with the mother and children - at the end of the room. One can move from one aisle to the other on either end of the laundromat, with washers/dryers in the center.

The elapsed time of the attack is 20 seconds. "Meth Me" enters laundromat at 00:04 and grabs "Clean Me" at 00:23.

Sitting at "Clean Me's" location, you have to recognize the threat as "Meth Me" enters to have an opportunity to react. He begins the attack upon entry. Recognizing the threat at the attack on the mother and children leaves only 7 seconds before "Meth Me" is on you. He covers the distance from them to you in 3 seconds.

If aware, one might move to the left and into the opposite aisle from the attacker, using the washers/dryers as an obstacle. Engaging from that location allows you, and everyone else, an opportunity to escape further harm. If you must fire, you have a better background visible. Of course you can't know what is behind the dryers.
 

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Well, I am in the corner, gun ready, and being a good witness. He comes at me like that, I aim my gun, in a command voice tell him to stop. If he doesn't, I shoot.
No weapon on his person required as in this instance, in specific.
His hands were his weapon and he'd already used them twice to assault and overpower two other persons in the laundromat.

But I too would not draw a firearm.
Instead I'd draw my can of simma down, OC/CS, as kept by my side in it's holster or my rear pant pocket and I'd starch this mans shorts.

Upon spraying him I'd quickly pocket the spray and retreat.
If no retreat is available then a very _QUICK_ soccer kick to the groin or a heel kick to the inner thigh would suffice to stun him further if not put him to the ground (assuming the OC/CS) did not already do that job for me so that I can side step/slide him and evac myself from being cornered.

My firearm remains holstered.
I reholster my OC/CS...And my knife as well remains holstered or pocketed. No blood letting lethal force tools involved, nor required.

As I have long said not every incidence requires or is even advisable to involve lethal force.
Never mind penetration possibility. A much greater potential is that the citizen would out right _MISS_ and drop a shot. The background is a mother with her two children as in front of a plate glass window leading out to a public street.
A miss is of much higher and most plausible concern. Especially considering the vast majority of gun owners and gun carriers, including police, do not train with any regularity what so ever.

Having non-lethal force tools at hand AND being of a physical condition to be able to respond to conditions (ability to run and/or strike if necessary as without necessarily going into a protracted 'street fight' tussle) is in many cases more functional and overall prudent than simply leaping to the top most security response protocol of drawn guns.

- Janq
OK, so here is my reasoning, and this would apply only to me, sort of.

I am almost 55, short, light and right now in a lot of pain due to a possible double hernia. I am in no physical condition to take on a young kid high on meth. I am not going to a hospital with bodily harm because this kid can't control his life. OC spray? Ya, but that assumes that I can spray him and get out of the way quickly. I can't.

So my strategy was when he entered to get a row of washers between him and me. I have my gun at low ready. If he comes towards me, I point my gun at him. Gosh, I am hoping even a meth addict can understand a gun pointed at him. At that point, if he physically comes around the washers and plans to attack me, I fire.
 

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Just some thoughts. 1)Use more than one combative strike, follow up on the kick with an additional strike or two before attempting to "put him on the ground;" 2) beware of the OC/CS you just soaked him with as you attempt to put him on the ground--it might get back on you.

What I think you are saying is stun,disorient, disable, , and git-outta-there. For a young athletic and trained fellow as yourself that sounds like a plan.
Agreed on all points Hopyard.

I'd use as many strikes as is necessary, to allow me ability to get out of there.
I did not expand on that though in my post simply for reason of speaking to the generalized public who are not generally experienced at all in hand to hand combat muchless have ever thrown a punch in anger.
But everyone has kicked a ball at one time in their life and by that they can directly attach mentally to my analogy as related to a soccer style kick or using ones heel to the inner thigh. Any person regardless of age or gender who is physically able to move their leg as from a _seated_ position (the actor is seated) can pull this off to a high degree of success.

Agreed as well in regard to OC/CS use and that is an item that anyone should consider and IMHO plan on occurring if they choose such a weapon to carry.
Same as if one chooses to carry a firearm they should plan on a miss (thus why it is critical to take note of background before firing!) and also know how to handle and clear a weapon malfunction. Items that commonly come with the territory and to not know this is a failure on the part of the handler/operator.

I am most definitely stating; Stun/Disorient, Disable/Stop (If even momentarily rather than long term or permanently) and EVACUATE!

Evacuate means to put distance and/or solid object cover if not concealment as between you and the attacker(s).
Distance and cover are our very best friends....As they are first cousins to life and security.

Once more my post response was generic as to the majority of persons walking our streets; Child to Elder.
These are real world effective actions and thoughts that most anyone could use as to the majority, to survive such an encounter.

As to myself though speaking in specific, frankly that guy would not have caught me seated in the chair like that looking frozen to start.
Because I personally quite simply would not have set myself up for being prey as these people depicted did. I grew up as a kid using laundromats and one thing I learned very quickly is that laundromats are a pen for predators. They know you have money because you walk in there with a pocket full of quarters at a dollar or more per load, wash and dry (!). As well they typically have just one entrance and exit so by that once inside you are cornered with means of escape. Just like a pen.

I would be doing my laundry by day not at night as in this case and I would leave my laundry inside the laundromat and place myself _outside_ of the laundromat to wait on cycles to complete, and observe as from distance. I learned this lesson on my own by observation as by age 9 or 10, as a shorty watching other suckas adult and children too get got _exactly_ like this scenario.
You only have to see or fall victim to such an item once to learn. Kind of like playing with matches and getting burned.

Also soon as he'd entered the laundromat it's very likely I would have, assuming I were for some odd reason caught inside seated like that, noted his entry. I again by my own life experience and lessons learned first person as well as third person observed learning by proxy have a habit to watch every person who enters _and_ exits within my view. I do this everywhere and now it's to a point I don't even think about it actively anymore. It's sub-conscious for me.
I'd have noted his 1) fast entry and 2) hooded head as 3) at night. Individually those are yellow flag items. As combined into one they are red flag items.
At that point I would not wait to see what is going to happen or if he would make it over to me.
I'd be acting at this point, rather than reacting.
I would likely duck and scoot down for concealment behind the row of units to the guys hard left and attempt to take a flank against where the first guy entered.
I say first because I have also learned the hard way that these people almost never travel and act alone. When you see one assume two. If you see two assume four. That rule of my own observation has saved me skin a number of times to date.

From there whether I choose to stay concealed, escape/evac, or even go on the defensive and attack (!) as from surprise would depend on a multiple of additional and untold factors not featured in this clip.
But one thing I am sure about as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, I very likely would either not be there to start to set myself up for failure OR I would not be caught flat footed and flat bottom frozen in a chair like that. Odds as based on my own past experiences do not support it, for me.
But that's me, myself and I.

As to my age and conditioning that leads to another item that I touched on my posting.
Conditioning.
Acquiring and maintaining a minimum degree of physical conditioning is a very real means of active self defense and personal security enabling.
My next birthday this coming summer will be my fortieth (40th). I was born in 1970.
I am one of a very few males of my age group and contemporaries as well as 'dads' that I know who is by any manner of assessment is in "shape" physically, and internally.
I can pick myself up. I can lift at least one leg and kick. I can move my bulk and _run_ to save my own life be it to flee a felony in progress or a fire at my back.
This is by no accident nor due to genetics. Inversely my own peers are largely not in same or similar condition as due to happenstance accident or genetics, even as they might try to explain away their belly and back fat as just that.

Fact is I choose to keep myself functional as in a physical and internal condition manner. I long ago made that choice seeing it to be a survival necessity as a kid. The kid who could run didn't have to work about danger from neighborhood bullys, cops (!) and others who had less than friendly intent toward you. You only had to NOT be the slowest or second slowest of the pack you happen to be caught on the run with.
Same applys to fighting it out. You didn't have to be the best fighter. Just not the weakest/slowest and most definitely you cannot be a 'punk'. And I'm not referring to a music style either.
I'm a grown man now and I also by personal choice removed myself from such areas and now live, at multiple personal costs, in a less interesting area. Crime though occurs here as well...and we have laundromats too, where people do on occasion get got.

So to those who might think my post was applicable in the narrows to a healthy physically fit and youthful male...they would be incorrect.
Further for those who might excuse away my proposed actions to instead default straight to a drawn gun and/or taking shots I would encourage them to take an honest assessment of their own self and ask a simple singular question of; 'Why?'.

Personally as speaking for and toward myself, the absolute last thing in life and living that I want to do is to draw my firearm.
Because if my brain does the math and comes to a sum answer that involves drawing of my lethal force tool...Well then no matter what happens next nobody is going to win.
I'm not a draw and brandish type of mindset person. I am quiet and calculating. I don't bark and do the chest puffery thing. Never have not even as a kid. I'll even try to walk it off and take verbal barbs, to a degree. But beyond that, I go straight to bite. No bared teeth. No growling and hackles raising. I do the math in my head and then bite.
Biggest problem for me to that end is under training scenarios to force myself to speak and yell out a warning of 'Halt' or 'I don't want to hurt you!'. Even during IDPA events this happens where I just go super focused in my brain and I don't hear other people speaking to me or I for a moment find it difficult to come out of attack/defensive attack thought process.

So again unlike others I personally see the firearm as a literal option of very last resort. If I play that card I'll very likely use it rather than simply display it. From there though things very much tend to go downhill. And I will be in the moment extremely focused on doing the absolute maximum amount of bodily harm to my attacker(s) as efficiently as is possible while also actively minimizing my own exposure probability to injury. This is why I will not go toe to toe slug fest style with some fool(s) nor think to stand my ground and fight it out because I might be physically larger in stature or weight than the other guy(s). People get owned with that thought left and right on the streets, in real life. David vs. Goliath style.

A bit of a long reply but I wanted this time around to be complete s toward my view and reasoning for my first post.
This video and thread scenario IMHO is good as it reflects a real world very mush plausible happening for any place be it city, suburban or rural.
It's far better to think on these things now from ones chair now as they can than to be caught in the video victims chairs as into the who knows when future.

Real world apartment and public laundromats as I recall them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMPJ0J4HXLc <Warning: The audio track is very much NWS. Hit mute before playing!>
http://www.weathernet5.com/news/15030529/detail.html

BTW not just males run up on folks in laundromats and laundry rooms (apartment/condo) but females do the exact same things preying on other females and even running with males as armed to 'get that money' and lighten folks pockets.
Seriously. Real world.

- Janq
 

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I'd OC him and (if at all possible) leave
OC/CS, groin kicks, karate moves - whatever. Y'all might wanna read up on the effects of meth. He may very well be almost impervious to pain, and a lot stronger than a normal person. I've seen reports of TAZEed meth dopers ignoring the darts, ripping them out, and continuing to advance. Never bring pepper spray to a life and death situation.

If I feel my life is threatened, I won't use halfway measures. I'll manage to find a position I can safely shoot from. Sometimes you do what you gotta do and shed no tears.
 

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I'd use as many strikes as is necessary, to allow me ability to get out of there.
So all y'all are going to disable him for as long as it takes you to run, leaving the other victims to his (already proven violent) mercy when he recovers? I dunno if I could do that - just walk (run) away. The baby, the old women...I hope the cops get there QUICK! Disable is good, disable permanently is great.
 

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OK, so here is my reasoning, and this would apply only to me, sort of.

I am almost 55, short, light and right now in a lot of pain due to a possible double hernia. I am in no physical condition to...
...Be carrying loads of laundry to a laundromat at all muchless very heavy wet loads from a washer to a dryer.

Thus this scenario in whole is not applicable to you in your current state of physical condition because you simply would not be there in the first place.

The absolute best defense is not being there in the first place to suffer an offense.

Your double hernia may have saved your life, the life of a BG, the lives of the persons shown as in the background and not to mention a whole mess of secondary problems as related to local laws and law enforcement...including being handcuffed and stuffed into the very much uncomfortable back seat of a cruiser to only further annoy if not injure your double hernia.

- Janq
 

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Discussion Starter #20
So all y'all are going to disable him for as long as it takes you to run, leaving the other victims to his (already proven violent) mercy when he recovers?
Not my problem

This is (IMO) a really good training scenario because it's damn near a Kobyashi Maru. There really isn't a good location for a safe shot in the room. So you can't just say 'I'd shoot him"

I'm W/ Jang on this one a laundromat is a mugging waiting to happen. The one I would be most likely to use near my home has a back door and I usually sit right next to it if I have to go there.
 
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