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Discussion Starter #1
Just returned from Suarez International's Interactive Gunfighting Course.

Sight picture? What sight picture? :eek:

Weaver? Chapman? Isocseles? Well, whatever stance you can maintain while at a dead run. :eek:uttahere

Wouldn't this technique work better? Don't know; let's try it. :confused:

When defending in a Teuller drill, a clean fast draw is a must. :yikes:

There's a distinct advantage to a gun without a safety that must be disengaged. :shocked:

It's fun being a bad guy. :badguy:

In a public place, a self defense action can become total pandemonium in an instant. :w00t:

In a public place, in a self defense situation that has become total pandemonium, it's easy to mistake a good guy for one of the bad guys. :hand4:

These words are to the Interactive Gunfighting course as IPSC is to a real gunfight.
Airsoft masks don't make it; go for paintball masks.

$30 airsoft guns don't make it; get a decent gun.

Airsoft - convenient, year-round practice.

Pictures? Oh, yeah, I brought a camera, didn't I. OOps.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
BOTH! It was a fantastic course. Would recommend for everyone. However,...

...it sucks to find out that everything you've been practicing on the square range will fall apart in the real world at real world attack ranges. It can get very intense, especially when things are too close to just run and gun (bad guy bursts into a room full of people and just starts methodically shooting them. Try the Teuller drill at a range of 3 yards instead of 7.)

The only caveat is that airsoft guns don't have much recoil, so you still need the square range time.
 

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I really like Suarez' "outside-the-box" thinking. Good man. And, good review, grnzbra.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yes and yes.

Actually, tours the world. Thurmont, MD was the closest I've seen it to PRNJ where I am a subject. Check the link. Check his warriortalk.com forum under Training Taken With Suarez heading. A bunch of the guys who were there have posted their thoughts.
 

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Gabe will be in MA in July

Well, Gabe will perhaps be closer to NJ than MD this Summer. He'll be teaching in Tyngsboro MA (only ~3 miles from NH) in July.

More info about this and Randy Cain and Jeff Gonzales, all three of whom will be teaching in Tyngsboro this Summer, can be found at:
http://www.neshooters.com/2005-schedule.html

Gabe Suarez's Enhanced Defensive Shooting course (4 days) currently only has 2 slots available for all 4 days and five slots available for the first 2 days only.
 

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It's also worthwhile to sign up for his email list. It isn't sent that often, but when it does arrive it's got some well written articles plus schedule updates.
 

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I haven't had the chance to attend one of Gabe's courses yet, but from what I've heard, they're excellent. I'm also on his e-mail list, which I highly recommend in that you get some very good reading and insights.
 

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I'm sure I'll ruffle some feathers here, but, one of the reasons I left the Suarez forum is because of the "nothing you've been taught works" attitude along with a we've got the answer - throw away everything you've ever been taught, stances don't work, sights don't work, etc.

We know that we can design drills to "prove" just about anything we want to; that doesn't mean tried and proven methods should be abandoned. If we don't have a stance to shoot from, what do we practice - any and every position we can come up with?

I once got into a debate about point shooting versus flash sight shooting and it prompted me to go to the range to do some experimenting. I decided I would do nothing but target focused shooting at the ranges (3 - 5 yards) I normally do sighted shooting. Although I never practice point shooting, and I mean never, I discovered that I could shoot just as well and maybe a bit faster point shooting than I could flash sight shooting.

When I posted my hits and times, a guy asked if he could post my post on his point shooting board. My response was: think about it; do you really want to post a message that says if you always practice sight shooting, you will be able to point shoot on demand? He agreed that wasn't the message he wanted, so he didn't post my remarks.

So do I now practice point shooting? Absolutely not; I don't even think about point shooting. If what I'm doing developed my ability to point shoot on demand, why should I change?

My point here is that that there seems to be a "core" of shooting principles that lead to continued, improved shooting. Will we be able to get in our stance and grip in that moment of truth? We won't know until it happens, but should we abandon good shooting principles because we may not get to use them. I think not because they still lead to improved shooting.

One last story. I had a buddy named Alan who was the number 2 man on the tennis team. I asked him if he thought he would ever be able to beat the number one guy. Without hesitation, he said, Yep! He (the no. 1 guy) uses unorthodox techniques and I (Alan) learned correct techniques from a professional. The more I practice, the better I will get, but he will hit a limit because of the insufficiency of his techniques. He told me that over 30 years ago and it made such an impression of the importance of technique that I never forgot it.

I watched a golf game yesterday (was a slooow day) and you know what the commentators talk about? Proper stance, grip, swing, in other words, proper technique. The same techniques were used to tee off, in the fareway and in the really "rough". I couldn't help but wonder if these guys would be willing to give up there core techniques because in the rough, you can't get into the proper stance etc.

When a football team loses a game what do they do the following week in practice? Do they abandon their core techniques because they didn't win a game? No, they often practice the fundamentals of blocking, tackling, etc. that much harder. Why? Because those core fundamentals have been proven time and time again to work.

I believe the same is true for shooting; there are core fundamentals that work and they will enhance our shooting even when we can't get into that perfect set-up.

Well, as usual, I've used up more time and space than I deserve.
 

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I think technique is important, and having an SOP, well-drilled, automatic, that you don't have to think about is important. BUT, the real world rarely cooperates with classroom assumptions, and it doesn't matter what field or skill you are talking about. Fundamentals still apply, but the devil is in the details. People who are so bound to a technique that they CAN'T shoot/fight if they can't use a particular stance or grip are going to be in trouble in the organic, real world. A base technique ends up being the foundation upon which you build your repertoire. The repertoire needs to include methods for dealing with the awkward and unexpected. I've read several of Suarez's books and incorporated some of his drills into my training. I have not had the fortune to attend one of his classes, though I know folks who have. Maybe they are overstating things when they say to throw out everything you've learned. I've also heard that used when instructors were trying to get people to open up to something outside the boundaries of their experience, knowing full well that people aren't going to abandon entirely what they have learned. The way I've read Suarez, it seems like he says modern isosceles stance works for some folks, Weaver for others, modified Weaver for others, and some people use stances that have no names. All are proven in combat by some folks. You also need to have a technique and stance for dealing with the situation where your hands are full and you are two-thirds of the way into your car, or when you are flat on your back, or at a dead run. I'm glad you got something useful and positive out of the course. In the end, that's what matters.
 

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Technique is a funny thing- the more you have it, the less you need it. Only through the assimilation of proper technique can one move past the need for it. Examples: Horowitz- wonderful piano technique as a student, but left it all in the dust as a master, because he could. #2 Bruce Lee- the consummate warrior. Master of every technique, but moved past them AFTER HE HAD MASTERED THEM. Friends, the key is have such complete control and mastery of your technique that you no longer think of it as external- in fact you don't think of it at all.
 

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xmeister said:
Friends, the key is have such complete control and mastery of your technique that you no longer think of it as external- in fact you don't think of it at all.
That's excellent!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Tangle,

There is much validity to your observations. However, the problem occurs when the reality is radically different than the drill. For example, a good one shot draw for me is 1.5 seconds from an old Bianchi appendix draw holster. With a lot of practice, and a levitation holster, I know I could get this down significantly. However, on the street, while not in condition white, I will not be at the level of alertness as at the beginning of an IPSC stage or even waiting for the buzzer during practice, I will have an IWB holster and it will be under some kind of outer garment. Furthermore, on the street the final range may be about 6 inches.

So when I dry fire, I practice clearing the clothing, remembering to disengage the safety, rotating the gun horizontal and get it far enough forward so that the clothing doesn't get between the hammer and the firing pin. Do I still practice sighted fire? Yes, but always from under a garment. (Either that, or starting with the gun in hand and just going through the process of acquiring the sights and target and dropping the hammer.)
 

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I wouldn't throw away the idea of checking out Gabe's courses due to a forum. Every forum has it's share of less experienced practitioners that tend to spout off something stupid. Tangle has a good point when it comes to learning the proven fundamentals, but once they're down pat, it's also good to think outside the box, and have an open mind. I can't elaborate more without repeating the great respones that the others gave.

Franco
 

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Gabes newsletter is really an eye opener to attitudes we develop about playing fair and the expectation the bad guy is going to comply. Gabe is really outstanding in my book, he is a street fighter that will keep you alive when the terror starts. He provides a service with his news letter by teaching us what to expect and how to modify your attitudes about fighting to stay alive. :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Tom357 said:
He makes a lot of sense, to me. Why do some treat him as a pariah?
Perhaps because they haven't had the "Aha" experience one gets from taking one of his classes.
 

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I think airsoft as a close drill training aid is good. I have done this for a few years now . Sometimes with a few friends. It opens your eyes to how fast you can end up hit and how cover will really help.
 
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