[Bunny]

So this question came up in a class recently, I was wondering about y'all's thoughts on it. Especially any of you who may have been, or know anyone who has been, to court for something shooting related.

Three pieces of advice were given:

1) Never carry reloads, always carry factory ammo for SD. The thought behind this is that if you load your own, the DA can say that you didn't know what you were doing, that you were trying to make some superior killing-ammo, and that you were bloodthirsty and out to kill. So even if SHTF and you were FORCED TO SHOOT TO DEFEND YOUR LIFE, you're not seen as a victim defending yourself, you were probably out looking for trouble and therefore a criminal.

2) Never carry modified guns for SD because of the whole "bloodthirsty" argument above. :twak:

and this one, the one that's got me really pondering...

3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. For example, if YourTown Police Department carries ABC Hollowpoint rounds, no matter the caliber, then YOU should only carry ABC Hollowpoint rounds. That way, if you're ever on trial for defending yourself, when they ask you what brand/type ammo you carry and why...you can say that you carry ABC HPs because local LE does it, and you know that they carry every day to defend themselves. Then the DA can't say you carry Evil XYZ ammo, which would make you clearly bloodthirsty and out looking for an excuse to kill someone, see above.


So I'm curious. What do you think about these statements, and why?

 

[JD]

It's all "sound" information pending on what exact modifications we're talking about. 1, 2, and 3 have been addressed here MANY times over.


I will say this about #3, departments genreally don't issue garbage ammo for duty use, it's usually going to be a "proven" round.

 

[dlclarkii]

I agree with all 3.

For 1 and 2. The DA will use both as mis-fire saying either the ammo or gun went out without the intent of firing and blame you for recklessness. The gun didn't go off to manufacturer's specs because both the ammo and gun were modified.

For 3. If you don't use the same ammo as LEOs then the DA will accuse of you using an inhumane ammo.

It's all part of covering your a$$ (CYA) You want a solid case in your defense for shooting someone in self defense.

 

[JD]

Most recent thread on modified guns: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...ns/92477-prosecution-legal-modifications.html

From the reference section: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...es-where-handloads-caused-problems-court.html

 

[johnsr]

Not all L.E.O.'s carry the same ammo or the same weapon. I think any factory ammo that was designed for your weapon would be O.K. tho I always carry HP ammo for other reasons...:yup:

 

[Katana]

They're all bovine scatalogy, but unfortunately, they all seem to ring true when it comes to some DA's. There are those out there who would use any stupid thing they could to attempt to prosecute a lawful SD shooter due to their own beliefs, because they think it could further their career, etc..

As far as #3 goes, I just recently made the switch from Corbon Pow'R Ball to Winchester PDX-1 partly due to the FBI adopting it (there are more reasons than that, but that helped.)

In fact, one of the reasons why I moved from .45 to .40 for my carry needs was due to it's mass adoption by the LE community. I figure it can't hurt my case if I ever do need to shoot.

 

[chiefjason]

Was it Harold Fish that had an issue with the 10mm handgun in court? It could happen. The question is does it happen regularly? Probably not.

My local LEO only uses FMJ. I figure I can find some LE agency that uses ABC rounds and use that. Or I can try to make a good shoot and not have any charges. This is probably only an issue in civil court. Which is one reason NC needs to get on the ball with the Castle Doctrine!

I sharpen my own knives, have a flashlight with a strike bezel, filed down the corner on my pepper spray so it would not poke me, alternate HP and FMJ in my mags but I'm not worried about them. It's endless what you could worry and argue about. I keep it in the back of my mind, but don't let it carry much weight.

 

[rljohns]

It's not bad advice. I went to ask a cop on officer.com and ask for CO LE to chime in. I received a few good responses and found HST, Golden Saber, and Gold Dot to be usual ammo. Then it just deteriorated into smart A$$ responses. A couple said it was none of my business. Another popular round is ranger XT.

One problem is that DAs hate to lose, so if they take the case they will stop at nothing. In the above mentioned case with Mr. Fish the DA first refused the case and some friends of the victim convinced him to take it. Then the case went very strange, discussion of HP, 10mm being too "powerful" for the FBI, etc.

I use HST, Gold Dot, and Golden Sabers which are used locally. I was using extreme shock fang face and realized it was all hype.

 

[SIXTO]

1,2 and 3 are all typical gun advice in a can. They get repeated and spouted over and over again by people who really don't know squat, but still feel the need to try and impress those who are impressionable.

Anyway, none of it is terrible advice, but its also not necessarily advice to live by.

 

[dukalmighty]

In Tx all that really matters is if you were justified to use deadly force.I guarantee you that a load of 00 buck COM at 10 feet is gonna be more devastating than any handgun round,yet you would be justified if the situation met the criteria for use of deadly force.Different states have different requirements

 

[Mean Dean]

Hmmm...well, what about my .380 b.u.g.? What LEO that you know carries a .380 as a duty weapon?

As far as #3 is concerned (unless you live in the PRK, Neu Jersey or Neu York) I think that, as long as you are buying off-the-shelf stuff that is sold to the general public, then you'll be fine.

 

[Katana]

Hmmm...well, what about my .380 b.u.g.? What LEO that you know carries a .380 as a duty weapon?

As far as #3 is concerned (unless you live in the PRK, Neu Jersey or Neu York) I think that, as long as you are buying off-the-shelf stuff that is sold to the general public, then you'll be fine.

I've known more than a few who qualified and carried both .380 and 9x18 as a BUG.

 

[TX-JB]

That would be interesting on the ammo issue, because the two largest LE agencies here, don't issue ammo. It's bought by the officer, as are the guns, with the only specification being, it must be a JHP round... except .45acp can be FMJ...

 

[BikerRN]

In Tx all that really should matter is if you were justified to use deadly force.I guarantee you that a load of 00 buck COM at 10 feet is gonna be more devastating than any handgun round,yet you would be justified if the situation met the criteria for use of deadly force.Different states have different requirements

Hi dukalmighty. :wave:

Like other states, Texas has had it's share of wrongful prosecutions. I fixed it for ya' mate.

Biker

 

[MitchellCT]

So I'm curious. What do you think about these statements, and why?

I think these are very gear centered points unworthy of further discussion.

I think people will insist their gear have a "individuality" factor which, combined with a skewed and poor understanding of, and the lack of ability to apply correctly, the use of force rules they live under, that their weapon, ammunition and other minutia will untimately be inconsequential to the outcome of the situation.

People SAY they want to know answers to questions like this, yet when professionals like people in the law enforcement field, legal system and firearm professionals offer answers, everyone gets in a snit because their ideas aren't validated, so they end up doing whatever they want to.

If you are still hung up on handloading your carry ammo, do it.
If you want to carry a particular round, go for it.
If you want to install a competition trigger in your carry weapon, I hope it gives you a smile on your face.

Want to know a secret?

It's sort of an open secret...but I'll spell it out for you.

The less "***" factor your gear has, the better.

If your shooting is "clean" with no "interesting" factors like the amount of rounds fired, entry wounds in the back of the dead guy, no honest, well meaning witnesses (who saw the whole thing) yet interpreted events wrong...doesn't matter what you used.

However...If you plan for a shooting and the aftermath to go off without a hitch, you are smoking some stuff that the DEA, FDA, CDC, FBI & the White House would like samples of for research.

While I know this is a very unpopular thing to say, especially if it's being said by someone who has actual experience in dealing with the representation of real defendants in real court before real judges and prosecutors...

Keep it simple.
Keep it realistic.
Keep it relevant.

Avoid the temptation to get clever.
Avoid the temptation to assume you know better "just because".
Avoid the temptation to think that you have a firm understanding of all the factors which will be in play should you need to shoot someone, and that you can play the factors to your advantage while you are a suspect/defendant.

Sometimes the best answer is the simplest one.

Factory ammo.
The weapon kept stock with the exception of sights of your chosing.
Relevant, realistic, recent training in tactics and law.

You want to go off on how the prosecutor is out to get you if you use handloads...fine.

But I'll tell you this, because 24 hours ago, I was sitting in a judge's chambers with the major felony prosecutors discussing my client's fate...

Ain't ONE person who thinks prosecutors are just looking to screw the people that defend themselves got a clue.

If it comes to the point a prosecutor is signing a warrant and submitting it to a judgeTHE PERSON WHO WAS 'DEFENDING' THEMSELVES SCREWED UP TO A DEGREE THAT THEY MADE A GUY WHO SEES EVERY NASTY THING THAT NASTY PEOPLE DO, AND PUTS BAD PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR A LIVING BELIEVE THE SHOOTER IS ONE OF THEM

 

[danhammondsr]

I think factory ammo, same as LE, etc., falls into the same category as getting a trigger job that results in a "hair trigger."

The more stock you keep things, the less ammunition you give to a prosecutor (or plaintiff's atty in a civil case), even if you were otherwise justified.

Modifications and handloads give the overly ambitious barristers opportunities to make statements to a jury (or judge) like, "You loaded those up to be man-killers." Or, "You deliberately modified that gun so it would be more lethal."

You also open yourself up to making an absurd statement like, "It went off by accident." Or, "I didn't mean to kill him." If it really did go off by accident, and you had a "hair trigger modification" you're sunk in civil cases, and you probably won't fair much better in the criminal trial either. It's a short path from SD to negligent homicide or manslaughter.

 

[JD]

Some additional perspective...


Concealed Carry / Firearms Dogma, Hype, Regurgitation, and Explanation.

 

[Keltyke]

I'll carry what I feel is necessary to save my life. All the mods I've made to my carry piece are for comfort, ease of shooting, and/or accuracy. The accuracy issue will hold up well. I'm less likely to hit an innocent bystander. Police have different uses for their ammo than the average private citizen. What may work for them may not work for me. With all the good, quality ammo out there, I see no need to reload and carry personal defense rounds. I'm much more likely to reload range ammo that I use 2-3 boxes at a time.

Mas has addressed this. Custom guns and ammo have been used as prosecution weapon, but seldom successfully. The DA will use ANY reason to make you out as a vigilante - just the fact that you carry a gun marks you from the outset. A competent defense lawyer will make the jury feel like they were the ones there and being attacked.

All that being said, I wouldn't put a tactical logo like "Death and Destruction" on my carry weapon.

 

[BRTCP88]

...3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. For example, if YourTown Police Department carries ABC Hollowpoint rounds, no matter the caliber, then YOU should only carry ABC Hollowpoint rounds. That way, if you're ever on trial for defending yourself, when they ask you what brand/type ammo you carry and why...you can say that you carry ABC HPs because local LE does it, and you know that they carry every day to defend themselves. Then the DA can't say you carry Evil XYZ ammo, which would make you clearly bloodthirsty and out looking for an excuse to kill someone, see above.

But couldn't they use that to say that you were a vigilante and a wannabe cop?

 

[oneshot]

3) ONLY carry the same ammunition as your local law enforcement. For example, if YourTown Police Department carries ABC Hollowpoint rounds, no matter the caliber, then YOU should only carry ABC Hollowpoint rounds. That way, if you're ever on trial for defending yourself, when they ask you what brand/type ammo you carry and why...you can say that you carry ABC HPs because local LE does it, and you know that they carry every day to defend themselves. Then the DA can't say you carry Evil XYZ ammo, which would make you clearly bloodthirsty and out looking for an excuse to kill someone, see above.

Quote bunny


The problem I see with #3 is the simple fact that if you travel ALL across your state, or multiple states for that matter, how in Gods name are you supposed to carry 6-10 or more brands of ammo, reload clips , etc,,,etc,,,,

Seems a little nonsensical



"If you put the government in charge of the desert, there would be a sand shortage within ten years." - A very wise man