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Discussion Starter #1
Here is my take on retention. Retention is a training issue and not a equipment issue. What makes a gun concealed? Being covered with something right? So when you are standing upright the gun is covered. If you get pushed backward up against a wall or on the ground your concealment garment is likely get pulled up or flap back exposing your gun.

Everyone thinks they are the good guy, even the bad guy. He sees or feels your gun and the fight is on. Both of you are focused on your gun. You are conflicted if you are trying to get it out or retain it, and he is conflicted if he is trying to get it or keep you from using it.

I can count on one hand the number of times that I was in a position where someone tried to get my gun or I felt they were positioning to. Every time it was from behind while I had my hands busy dealing with someone else. This is scary because you are conflicted between dealing with the initial threat and the gun grab.

On several occasions I have been cross contaminated with pepper spray to the point where I was blind. The first thing that goes through your mind is that you have to defend your gun by touch.

When you think about weapon retention don't dumb it down by picturing a lone person walking up behind you trying to snatch your gun. It is not very likely to be the main subject of the confrontation but something that happens during the confrontation.

We have also experienced lots of dropped Blue Guns and air-soft during training. Usually as part of a messed up draw. It is a deadly force scenario, that is why you pulled your gun out right? Now the gun is on the deck at your feet, what do you do? Do you have another gun/knife? Do you have any open hand skills? Do you bend over to pick it up? What if it goes off as you attempt to acquire a master grip from a flat surface? - George
 

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Very good points. I, like many, don't worry about retention when concealed. Time to change my mindset. I frequently carry cross draw concealed, which I would never do open carry except around the farm. They had a video on cops not long ago with a single LEO and a crack dealer. The crack dealer ended up with the LEOs weapon. During the fight the gun had become inoperative, but the crack dealer tried a bunch of times to use it on LEO. It will make you cringe. LEO had a bug. This happened in Selma, AL or Dallas CO, AL. Video is probably on the web somewhere. Thanks for insight.
 

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There you go AGAIN!!! ................Making us think! As always, thanks!
 

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I have been thinking about this a bit and one question that came to my uneducated mind is, "What if I don't do anything about it but attack?"

That said, I'm not trained in firearm retention at all. Absolutely zero classes or training time in this regard. Please bear with me a bit here as I'm merely curious.

I'm wondering if anyone on this board has ever studied the effectiveness of simply letting the assailant go for the gun (I keep mine in a thumb break holster, yes I'm a cheater) while the victim focuses on dealing as much damage as possible and forgets about retaining the firearm otherwise.
Anyone going for a gun grab has the same issues to present the weapon and discharge it effectively as the original wearer, often compounded by incorrect orientation for a firing grip, bad angles to withdraw the weapon, and a typically low body, face forward stance necessitated by grabbing something at waist level at arm's length. Taking both hands down to your waist and often twisting to the side strikes me as being far inferior to grabbing your assailant by the hair and laying an elbow upside his head or shoving your thumb about two inches deep into a random eye socket while priming something even worse in the very near future.

Anyone experiment with just all-out attacking the gun grabber instead of a more "traditional" retention method and how did it work out?
 

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I have done very little retention training. When we did, there was no instruction, it was more of a let’s see what happens thing.
What went through my mind was, get one hand on the gun to keep in place. Then use turn away from the threat while using the rest of my body to stun the BG enough to buy a little time and space.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
We do weapon retention in every class. In and out of the holster. Some thoughts-
Nobody grabs your gun with just their weak hand. With some training you see just how easy it is to snap their strong side elbow by trapping the gun with one hand and stepping through. We do this very slowly in class because it is very effective and you can only do it full speed twice:)

The idea is that your weapon is the focus of your attacker. That is a good thing, it keeps his hands and eyes busy. This is where elbows to the temple come in. Understand that someone trying to get your gun is a deadly force situation and deadly force is deadly force.

Another option that I prefer is to carry an Emerson Kerambit on my reaction side in reverse grip. When he is on your gun the bottom of his arms are exposed, the blade is deployed and rips through his brachial artery cutting him off of you and with the K-bit you can still shoot two handed without dropping either tool. - George
 

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The trend in my area (which I am sure is not isolated to Oregon) is for the majority of students to acquire a CHL and discard the idea they need additional skills like retention skills in the event they might screw up and allow their firearm to be noticed for whatever reason. My personal take for the average citizen carrying concealed on a daily basis is that in the first few months is when they are susceptible to messing up, as carrying concealed has not been fully perfected. Several schools in Oregon and Washington teach retention techniques were the attendance averaged around eight to twenty students per class two years ago and now as the economy goes downhill most schools now are cancelling more of these classes than not. I think that there are better chances of people learning retention skills that join forums like this one because they know why it is a good idea not just to be proficient with drawing and firing but need retention skills just in case one day someone attempts a grab.

Several years ago I read George's take on the Karambit weak side and feel this is an excellent idea for fending off a gun grab.
 

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That is the trend everywhere.

Most people think that guns are magic talismans that ward off evil. "Why practice any of that hand to hand stuff? Why not just shoot them? Merely HAVING a gun is what is important.I bought a gun so I would not have to fight......" That is what the majority seem to think.

That is the mentality that we must combat when we are teaching people the realities of interpersonal conflict inside 3 yards. At that distance action beats reaction and if all you can do is stand tall and draw you will likely end up either shot, stabbed or tackled.

Fortunately some "get it" and seek further training, but they are the distinct minority.
 

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re: cruel hand luke, some get it

Fortunately some "get it" and seek further training, but they are the distinct minority.
Unfortunately, it takes money and time, dedication, and physical health. I'm one that does get it and does diligently work on H2H, but I have the luxury to do so because I have the money for private lessons and the time to devote. I'm also, though mortally ill, still able to be fully active and hope to be that way for a few more years.
(And I've become a bit obsessed with MAs.)

Younger guys and gals who have families to take care of and limited resources, can't devote the time to learning H2H, knife or other weapons techniques, retention, etc., force on force. All they can do is carry and hope for the best--unless their job involves SD in one way or another.

I'm not going to put guilt for example on the woman who buys a 442, puts it in her purse, and hopes for the best. She is doing what most folks can manage to do; and likely family obligations, work, and other stuff make additional force on force or H2H training an impossibility. Same for most guys: Especially in this economy. If you spend 60 hours a week trying to keep it together, there isn't much left for "training."
 

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Thanks for the input, George. I keep seeing gun retention articles in gun rags and random video clips and I couldn't help thinking that maybe bringing both of your hands to the gun isn't the best idea ever despite it being the dominant methodology. Some things a double-grab on the gun to keep it in the holster and a spin won't fix but a thumb in the eye and knee to the solar plexus before the ol' head to armpit gig just might get the job done.

Probably another instance of having gun guys develop this stuff rather than unarmed combatives guys.
 

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That is the trend everywhere.

Most people think that guns are magic talismans that ward off evil. "Why practice any of that hand to hand stuff? Why not just shoot them? Merely HAVING a gun is what is important.I bought a gun so I would not have to fight......" That is what the majority seem to think.

That is the mentality that we must combat when we are teaching people the realities of interpersonal conflict inside 3 yards. At that distance action beats reaction and if all you can do is stand tall and draw you will likely end up either shot, stabbed or tackled.

Fortunately some "get it" and seek further training, but they are the distinct minority.
Very good post, however, not everyone who CCW is physically fit enough to engage an attacker and fight it out. I know many people who would be in a world of hurt and solely rely on the gun as their only option. I totally agree with what you're saying and if able to i think everyone should take some personal defense classes that include weapon retention and egress from a situation.
 

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Unfortunately, it takes money and time, dedication, and physical health. I'm one that does get it and does diligently work on H2H, but I have the luxury to do so because I have the money for private lessons and the time to devote. I'm also, though mortally ill, still able to be fully active and hope to be that way for a few more years.
(And I've become a bit obsessed with MAs.)

Younger guys and gals who have families to take care of and limited resources, can't devote the time to learning H2H, knife or other weapons techniques, retention, etc., force on force. All they can do is carry and hope for the best--unless their job involves SD in one way or another.

I'm not going to put guilt for example on the woman who buys a 442, puts it in her purse, and hopes for the best. She is doing what most folks can manage to do; and likely family obligations, work, and other stuff make additional force on force or H2H training an impossibility. Same for most guys: Especially in this economy. If you spend 60 hours a week trying to keep it together, there isn't much left for "training."

I understand that completely. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice from other areas to become a better shooter, knifer or grappler. Some of us do. I do not know who half the people on TV shows are anymore because I spend my time doing other things. Every day I know less about Kim Kardashian and Rhianna and Adam Lambert and all that popular culture crap and more about arm drags, takedowns and dealing with persons of unknown intent.

I was referring to fully fit,fully functional, fully funded "gun people" who suggest that since they have .45 1911 that all their problems are solved. People who have no qualms about spending $100 on a 5.11 vest or spending $150 on a folding knife for defense,but who look at you like you are crazy when you suggest they actually spend some time learning how to actually get it out and use it when someone has them in a headlock. When it is for real is not the time to be trying to figure that out.

And I'm not talking about being confronted with lethal force and CHOOSING to wade into it hand to hand. If you are fortunate enough to read the lethal force situation far enough out to get your gun in hand then good on you. Of course in THAT situation the gun is the right answer (assuming you cannot get away). But you cannot shoot panhandlers who come up and push you when you refuse to give them a dollar, or shoot someone who punches you for bumping into them and making them spill their beer in a restaurant.

I'm talking about being able to manage situations that START as hand to hand problems that can easily be solved, but due to whatever reason the fully physically able good guy's only tool in his box is to try to pull his gun out. I doubt anyone thinks being that guy is a good thing.....Not only is he interjecting lethal force where it may or may not yet be warranted he is likely to end up in a wrestling match over his gun.....again, that is probably not the best time to be trying to figuring out how to solve that problem.
 

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I was referring to fully fit,fully functional, fully funded "gun people" who suggest that since they have .45 1911 that all their problems are solved. People who have no qualms about spending $100 on a 5.11 vest or spending $150 on a folding knife for defense,but who look at you like you are crazy when you suggest they actually spend some time learning how to actually get it out and use it when someone has them in a headlock. When it is for real is not the time to be trying to figure that out.
So true. If I have an extra $600, I'd rather spend it on training than another gun that's only going to see occassional range use.
 

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The lack of funds is exactly why I have pared my handguns down to my G17. 100% of my training and practice money goes to into my EDC CCW this way.
 

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When I got my cc pemit, one of the first things that I did was look into classes. Have signed up for handgun retention and conseled carry classes. I want to know what to do when I need it. Just carring makes you more of a liability than an asset.
 

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Unfortunately, it takes money and time, dedication, and physical health. I'm one that does get it and does diligently work on H2H, but I have the luxury to do so because I have the money for private lessons and the time to devote. I'm also, though mortally ill, still able to be fully active and hope to be that way for a few more years.
(And I've become a bit obsessed with MAs.)

Younger guys and gals who have families to take care of and limited resources, can't devote the time to learning H2H, knife or other weapons techniques, retention, etc., force on force. All they can do is carry and hope for the best--unless their job involves SD in one way or another.

I'm not going to put guilt for example on the woman who buys a 442, puts it in her purse, and hopes for the best. She is doing what most folks can manage to do; and likely family obligations, work, and other stuff make additional force on force or H2H training an impossibility. Same for most guys: Especially in this economy. If you spend 60 hours a week trying to keep it together, there isn't much left for "training."
I know this reality all too well.

I recently graduated college, got married and entered the work force.

My work load is huge, and my job barely pays the insane college loan bills, rent, utilities, medical bills, car payment, insurance, food, etc., and ammo is a luxury, much less training classes.

Practicing what I read is my only training option. Many would castigate for not getting hands-on training, but I am glad someone understands that.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Practice with some dedicated friends is the best thing going. Especially if you take turns going to a class here and there that relates to your application.- George
 

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The best disarm / retention stuff I have seen is by Randy Wanner and Bob Taylor. It is out there on DVD but don`t know if they do any classes these days or not.
 

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I have been in a retention class, that is one of the reasons why I always carry a holster with a thumb break on it.
 
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