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But do you believe it's more important than number of rounds in the gun?
Depends on your hit rate with the initial shot(s). But nobody every lamented they had too many rounds they didn't use.
 

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But do you believe it's more important than number of rounds in the gun?
Fully dependent upon hit rate with first shot(s). Which is fully dependent upon either luck or training (mostly training).
 

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My seven shot Kahr P380 and five-shot S&W 940 J-frame are the two guns I have most suited for that purpose.
Perhaps I misunderstood you?

I don't understand how a semi-auto, of any type, could reliably be fired, beyond the first shot fired, from within a coat pocket. The operation of the slide would almost certainly be hampered by the confines of a coat pocket. A centennial-style revolver is likely the only pistol that is reliable, beyond the first shot, from within a coat pocket.
 

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So, first, I don't mean to sound like I can shoot like AzQkr - no way.

However, I've practiced a lot of drawing from both AIWB and 3 o'clock, and despite my preference for AIWB carry, I personally draw significantly faster from 3 o'clock. If fact, I've recently transitioned to usually carrying at 3 o'clock due in part to this realization.

Pocket draw is something I've practiced a lot as well, and while it certainly seems faster because your hand is on the gun, it also is the least reliable because of the likelihood the gun will snag or the holster won't separate. My preference is for pocket holsters that have no retention at all and just keep the gun from moving out of position.

As for "ammo capacity vs presentation speed", I think the only physical characteristics of the gun that would affect presentation speed would be primarily barrel length (long is bad), but also handle length (short is bad). In my experiments, a 5" barrel slows me down but ~4" and below is all about the same. With a shorter handle like a G26, I fumble a split second more before I get the grip right. As a result, I can draw my P229 at least as fast as I could draw my G26, and probly a bit faster. I can draw my Commander the same speed as my P229 - ammo capacity doesn't affect it.

However, I don't have a timer so this is all terribly unscientific.

Now that I say that - what timers do you guys recommend?
 

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I suppose the fastest is "gun already in hand" at the start of the encounter. This would probably be the default condition if the balloon went up while I was in my house. Next fastest would be in my hand, hidden in my coat pocket. This would be pretty reasonable with my LCR when I'm out and about in cold weather and wearing a coat. The next fastest would be IWB at 3:30 where I normally wear one of my HKs.

It's pretty hard to know in advance how quickly I would need to present my sidearm. The best guess for me would come from watching the dozens (hundreds?) of videos from channels like Active Self Protection on youtube. Real world violent encounters seem to run the gamut from the victim being shot in the back before he ever knew he was being targeted to having a defender crouching behind a supermarket aisle gun in hand for 30 seconds waiting for an opening. It appears that in a gunfight you might have to wait your turn and I few people are fast enough to outshoot a drawn gun already pointed at you.

I will note though that with the relatively limited arsenal of CCW-type guns at my disposal the ones with limited ammo are also handicapped with being harder to shoot accurately. At the large end my HK USP, VP9 and P30S all hold 15+1 and are easy to shoot well. My P2000 holds 13+1 and is pretty easy to shoot but not quite as easy as the VP9. My Beretta Nano holds 8+1 and is somewhat more difficult to wield accurately especially at distance. My Ruger LCR holds just 5 rounds and is the most difficult of them all to get accurate hits with.
 
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Perhaps I misunderstood you?

I don't understand how a semi-auto, of any type, could reliably be fired, beyond the first shot fired, from within a coat pocket. The operation of the slide would almost certainly be hampered by the confines of a coat pocket. A centennial-style revolver is likely the only pistol that is reliable, beyond the first shot, from within a coat pocket.
I've run entire mags through the pocketed Kahr several times without malfunction. As long as the muzzle isn't pressed forward into the material of the jacket, the gun doesn't malfunction. Even when pressed forward, I got three rounds off before it malfunctioned.
 

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So, first, I don't mean to sound like I can shoot like AzQkr - no way.

However, I've practiced a lot of drawing from both AIWB and 3 o'clock, and despite my preference for AIWB carry, I personally draw significantly faster from 3 o'clock. If fact, I've recently transitioned to usually carrying at 3 o'clock due in part to this realization.

Pocket draw is something I've practiced a lot as well, and while it certainly seems faster because your hand is on the gun, it also is the least reliable because of the likelihood the gun will snag or the holster won't separate. My preference is for pocket holsters that have no retention at all and just keep the gun from moving out of position.

As for "ammo capacity vs presentation speed", I think the only physical characteristics of the gun that would affect presentation speed would be primarily barrel length (long is bad), but also handle length (short is bad). In my experiments, a 5" barrel slows me down but ~4" and below is all about the same. With a shorter handle like a G26, I fumble a split second more before I get the grip right. As a result, I can draw my P229 at least as fast as I could draw my G26, and probly a bit faster. I can draw my Commander the same speed as my P229 - ammo capacity doesn't affect it.

However, I don't have a timer so this is all terribly unscientific.

Now that I say that - what timers do you guys recommend?
I use a PACT "Club" shot timer, runs about $125. I have it going on 10 years now with zero issues. It does: random & instant start, tracks splits, and will set PAR times. Par times come in handy for working dry-fire drills I set a random start and an appropriate time for what ever drill I'm working. This way you can ramp up as you progress.

I use a timer just about every time I shoot (couple times a week) and about 3-4 dry-fire sessions a week. When I have guys out to shoot that don't work with a timer, it's a pretty telling experience for them. One of the guys at work who just started shooting IDPA with me has been having one of those "eye opening" events just about every match. He always thought of himself as a good shot, right up until he ran into a timer and someone keeping score..........Now he realizing the "need for speed".

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter #68
Depends on your hit rate with the initial shot(s). But nobody every lamented they had too many rounds they didn't use.
If you're someone who can't miss fast enough, you'll probably need more, not less ammo. :bier:
 

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Where speed of presentation=what and where it's carried

Thoughts?
I do not compromise any more than necessary. I carry my main gun in a shoulder rig for example my Glock 31C with 16 rounds of 357 Sig with two reloads on the off side. Then I carry a 2nd AIWB either a 40 Shield or 44 Bulldog with one reload in my pocket. In that way I have capacity and speed of presentation.
 

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I use a PACT "Club" shot timer, runs about $125. I have it going on 10 years now with zero issues. It does: random & instant start, tracks splits, and will set PAR times. Par times come in handy for working dry-fire drills I set a random start and an appropriate time for what ever drill I'm working. This way you can ramp up as you progress.

I use a timer just about every time I shoot (couple times a week) and about 3-4 dry-fire sessions a week. When I have guys out to shoot that don't work with a timer, it's a pretty telling experience for them. One of the guys at work who just started shooting IDPA with me has been having one of those "eye opening" events just about every match. He always thought of himself as a good shot, right up until he ran into a timer and someone keeping score..........Now he realizing the "need for speed".

Chuck
One of my buddies who is a good IDPA shooter wanted to shoot our qualification course with us one time. After it was over and we were looking at the targets he said "you guys shoot different from me. I just pull and shoot as fast as I can, you guys slow down and make sure you get good hits". He would have barely qualified.
 

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One of the issues with this type of thread that asks "which is more important, A of B" is that you can come up with scenarios where either is more important.

You never know exactly what type of threat you will face until you face it.

If a guy is coming at you with a knife, getting your weapon deployed and scoring a hit quickly is critical.

If there are four guys, perhaps capacity is more important. Shooting the "leader" might scare the other BGs off, but it might not.

A really big BG might shrug off a couple hits with a small caliber, but a 45 acp+P hollow point or two might work.

Some BGs are very determined or drugged, and several hits are needed to stop. Others will sit down and start crying after a single hit -- or run and you don't have to shoot.

Trying to optimize for all possibilities might lead you to open carrying a double stack 45 acp. But who can do that?

But it's still an interesting thread and thanks to the OP for starting it.
 

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One of the issues with this type of thread that asks "which is more important, A of B" is that you can come up with scenarios where either is more important.

You never know exactly what type of threat you will face until you face it.

If a guy is coming at you with a knife, getting your weapon deployed and scoring a hit quickly is critical.

If there are four guys, perhaps capacity is more important. Shooting the "leader" might scare the other BGs off, but it might not.

A really big BG might shrug off a couple hits with a small caliber, but a 45 acp+P hollow point or two might work.

Some BGs are very determined or drugged, and several hits are needed to stop. Others will sit down and start crying after a single hit -- or run and you don't have to shoot.

Trying to optimize for all possibilities might lead you to open carrying a double stack 45 acp. Buy who can do that?

But it's still an interesting thread and thanks to the OP for starting it.
Not presuming to speak for Brownie, I would say you have determined the essence of his intentions in starting this thread.
 

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There is no way to be 100% safe in life, at least without compromising living vs merely existing.

My kids are tired of my constant reminders that decisions have consequences. Be aware of the consequences, but some risks in life are worth taking.
 

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One of my buddies who is a good IDPA shooter wanted to shoot our qualification course with us one time. After it was over and we were looking at the targets he said "you guys shoot different from me. I just pull and shoot as fast as I can, you guys slow down and make sure you get good hits". He would have barely qualified.
Bob, fortunately speed and accuracy aren't one of those mutually exclusive things.

We were discussing this yesterday at a match, one of the new IDPA rules that wen't into effect this year was assigning a full point down for each minus on a target. Years past each down point was assigned a 1/2 second penalty. One of the SOs was commenting how a lot of guys were shooting extra rounds (myself included) to stay "zero points down" on the targets. I could literally horse my way to a decent position in a stage by shooting fast, as long as I didn't get a "failure to neutralize", which meant at least 1 hit of -1 or less. Now thos lesser hits are too costly.

I don't believe that any group has a corner on the market for bad shooting, but generally the guys in the competitions do a fairly decent job of blending speed and accuracy, or else they're finishing somewhere in the lower 3rd.

Chuck
 

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I've run entire mags through the pocketed Kahr several times without malfunction. As long as the muzzle isn't pressed forward into the material of the jacket, the gun doesn't malfunction. Even when pressed forward, I got three rounds off before it malfunctioned.
Wow... I wouldn't have expected full semi-auto reliability when fired inside a coat pocket. Nice to hear it's worked for you. It isn't something that I would want to trust my life on, personally, though. I would with a centennial-style revolver.

Sounds like you had no issues with lighting the coat on fire, or anything like that?
 

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Wow... I wouldn't have expected full semi-auto reliability when fired inside a coat pocket. Nice to hear it's worked for you. It isn't something that I would want to trust my life on, personally, though. I would with a centennial-style revolver.

Sounds like you had no issues with lighting the coat on fire, or anything like that?
No, neither with the Kahr nor the J-frame. I was surprised.
 

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But do you believe it's more important than number of rounds in the gun?
We know speed kills. We also know that misses kill. Importance for me, is a balance. Speed of presentation and enough rounds (16 in the gun) to get the job done.
 

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I'm a believer in getting the shot off quickly which requires fast presentation. Quick kill comes to mind! This is more important than round count in most situations encountered by civilians.

First hit wins the prize most of the time.
 
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