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Discussion Starter #41
This thread is entitled, and about "Trigger characteristics and what they mean in a SD gun..."

A lot of members compete with their SD gun and may find something that would be useful to them.

Plus, one can do anything with a really good trigger that he can with a really bad trigger and even more.

Trigger characteristics are certainly a part of many elite LE departments, etc. such as SWAT, etc. A number of prominient SWAT teams use 1911s partly because of what they consider to be a superior trigger design and characteristic. I'm not saying it is superior, but rather they believe it is.
 

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Very informative post. I've got a Ruger LC9 with a really long trigger pull along with a lotta free play. I'm trying to decide if I wanna mess with modifying the trigger bar and adding a new hammer to refine all that.
 

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I have a S&W 99 in 45 that has the best trigger on a stock semi auto pistol I 've ever owned.Yes it'd a DA/SA the first shot has the long pull at around 6.5 pounds and the short pull set on the shade of hair at between 2.5-3 pounds so it
takes some getting use to.I am still surprised that this pistol didn't take off with law enforcement as when you compare it to the MP it's made alot better in my humble opinion and it's got some German blood in it which helps too.
 

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Great post, I've been thinking of getting a ghost trigger in my glock but haven't done it your post may push me to order...just sworried about doing the modification myself
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Great post, I've been thinking of getting a ghost trigger in my glock but haven't done it your post may push me to order...just sworried about doing the modification myself
It's not hard to do; I doubt you'll have any problem doing it. I don't know if you've seen this, but I now have a video that explains how, even how to take the gun apart:


The video actually covers the drop in connectors and the connectors with the TCT (Trigger Control Tab). You can use it to install either a Rocket or Tactical connector depending on which connector weight you want.
 

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This is a good post... I just had my M&P's trigger job (TJ) put in today actually... I love the crisp trigger break and the strong reset. I think that it is all up to the user but My M&P's trigger was actually fine with me before the TJ was done. However I have picked up a few M&P's that felt that they should have a TJ done.

I use my gun for SD and Competitive shooting... but just knowing that the trigger "stacking" has been cut way down, and the breaking is much smoother, The reset does click, but in a SD situation I will most likely subconsciously let the trigger over travel to reset. I know this just from experience under stress, those fine motor skills and doing things exactly/perfectly will go out the window. Me releasing my trigger will be a gross motor skill that is over extended.

Stay Safe ~Spec
 

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This is great detailed technical information, but as a whole it really reinforces that practice is the key with shooting, as with musical instruments. In the moment that you need it most, your brain, hand, and heart have to connect in such a way that no single one is dominant. Up to the moment of deciding go-no go, your brain had better be in control, but this is really about what happens after that.

That's my take away. Thanks.
 

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Definitely book marked! There were a lot of terms I 'thought' I knew, but it just goes to show--there's always more to learn. I'm not a huge fan of trigger jobs on my guns--I tend to feel that if you buy a decent gun, the trigger's going to be decent or otherwise you should return it--or more likely, never bought it to start. Initial creep, heaviness of pull (within reason) and a bit of grittiness aren't as of concern to me as an affirmative and not too long a reset between shots is.

Sure I can tell the difference when custom work's been done and how much smoother a high end Sig or HK trigger feels compared to my S&W's and Glocks, but in a self defense situation, a long trigger pull like on my S&W BG380 and to lesser exents on my M&P 40c or Glock 27 isn't likely to slowly me down in the heat of the nano second critical defense scenario, I don't think. Adrenaline is amazing on a first shot in such situations, I've 'heard'--hope I don't have to find out.

If it was competition--my gunsmith totally tricks out his Glocks and I can see how much faster he can empty his and accurately at that---then it'd be worthwhile for me, but honestly, I am no where up to his speed in skills nor experience and a 3 pound trigger's out of my league for now. To each their own...

But like they say--practice, practice, practice!
 

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GREAT INFO...That being said, get a Glock and drop in a Ghost Rocket trigger @ 3.5 lbs and forget about it. You'll never look back.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
GREAT INFO...That being said, get a Glock and drop in a Ghost Rocket trigger @ 3.5 lbs and forget about it. You'll never look back.
While I wouldn't argue with that, Rocket Glocks are not for everyone. Some don't even like Glocks, some are paranoid about having anything but a completely stock gun for SD - I presume they believe mass production is as good as it can get, and some can't abide a hair trigger :rolleyes: in a SD gun.

I have all my Glocks set up with a Ghost Rocket and am slowly converting them to Rockets with a Dave Spaulding cut.

Although, for those that are a bit squeamish about the 3.5# connector, I'm about to install a Ghost Tactical in a G17 G4. The Tactical is a 5# connector with the over-travel tab. I think it will be a significant improvement over stock.
 

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New to web site might I agree but not being mechanicly blessed I have Actions by T do my triggers an action jobs, they feel like butter sp101 2.5 and a S&W airweight an a Browning High Power have had a few work on guns over the years but none better
 

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Since most guys who suffer a real gunfight say that they can't remember seeing their sights, I would say that "subconscious" feel of any sort of trigger action is most unlikely to be noted by your brain. :) Realistically, the shooting, if you need to fire at all, is almost always sub-5 yds nothing about the trigger pull matters very much, you are still highly likely to miss the vitals, perhaps repeatedly, due to a variety of factors, over most of which you have no control. Like the lighting, enemy movement, your already being hurt, distractions (noise, flashing lights, innocents in the way).
 

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Since most guys who suffer a real gunfight say that they can't remember seeing their sights, I would say that "subconscious" feel of any sort of trigger action is most unlikely to be noted by your brain. :) Realistically, the shooting, if you need to fire at all, is almost always sub-5 yds nothing about the trigger pull matters very much, you are still highly likely to miss the vitals, perhaps repeatedly, due to a variety of factors, over most of which you have no control. Like the lighting, enemy movement, your already being hurt, distractions (noise, flashing lights, innocents in the way).


In 1985 I was involved in a gunfight. At the time I carried a S&W Model 57 (.41 magnum). After the dust had settled, I had to go to our firearms lab. to have the gun test fired for bullet comparsion. The lab. guys fired three bullets (from my carry ammunition) and tested the double action and single action trugger pulls. The double action was 12 lbs. !!! Yep, 12 pounds from the factory...guess what ? I never felt the gun discharge during the confrontation....12 pounds is nothing when you life is in the balance. So, I feel the comments about "gritty" trigger pulls are nothing to be concerned about unless you like shooting targets.


Yes, I agree with your comment, "Realistically, the shooting, if you need to fire at all, is almost always sub-5 yds nothing about the trigger pull matters very much,..."
 

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Since most guys who suffer a real gunfight say that they can't remember seeing their sights, I would say that "subconscious" feel of any sort of trigger action is most unlikely to be noted by your brain. :) Realistically, the shooting, if you need to fire at all, is almost always sub-5 yds nothing about the trigger pull matters very much, you are still highly likely to miss the vitals, perhaps repeatedly, due to a variety of factors, over most of which you have no control. Like the lighting, enemy movement, your already being hurt, distractions (noise, flashing lights, innocents in the way).
Well, kinda. Whether we realize there was recoil or not, not being aware of it doesn't mean it didn't have an effect. It has long been claimed that person's in a gunfight don't remember seeing their sights, that doesn't mean they didn't, it simply means they don't remember.

They are also asked how many times they fired their weapon and they rarely know...that doesn't mean they didn't fire their weapon. They are asked if they realized there were two other officers firing, and they are often not aware of that, but it still happened.

We have to be careful that we don't mistake the power of the subconscious performance, it is much faster than conscious performance. Take a concert pianist, there's know way they can play some of the notes at the speeds they do and form the chords as fast as they do at the conscious level.
 
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Discussion Starter #57
In 1985 I was involved in a gunfight. At the time I carried a S&W Model 57 (.41 magnum). After the dust had settled, I had to go to our firearms lab. to have the gun test fired for bullet comparsion. The lab. guys fired three bullets (from my carry ammunition) and tested the double action and single action trugger pulls. The double action was 12 lbs. !!! Yep, 12 pounds from the factory...guess what ? I never felt the gun discharge during the confrontation....12 pounds is nothing when you life is in the balance. So, I feel the comments about "gritty" trigger pulls are nothing to be concerned about unless you like shooting targets.


Yes, I agree with your comment, "Realistically, the shooting, if you need to fire at all, is almost always sub-5 yds nothing about the trigger pull matters very much,..."
The implication here is that we would always be just as well off with a heavier, gritty trigger as a smooth lighter one base on one single experience.

Others that shoot a lot and have a lot of knowledge about gunfights, promote lighter, smoother triggers. E.g. The ATF asked Glock to put lighter triggers in their duty guns. An FBI study showed that trigger pulls heavier than 5.5 lbs is detrimental to accuracy. I doubt they're concerned about paper targets.

Ken Hackathorn endorses the Glock Trigger Guardian kit for duty and carry guns and the kit has highly polished all Glock OEM parts including the minus connector which we now know is a 4.5 lb connector.

Dave Spaulding says, well here, hear for yourself - enjoy

 

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The implication here is that we would always be just as well off with a heavier, gritty trigger as a smooth lighter one base on one single experience.

Others that shoot a lot and have a lot of knowledge about gunfights, promote lighter, smoother triggers. E.g. The ATF asked Glock to put lighter triggers in their duty guns. An FBI study showed that trigger pulls heavier than 5.5 lbs is detrimental to accuracy. I doubt they're concerned about paper targets.

Ken Hackathorn endorses the Glock Trigger Guardian kit for duty and carry guns and the kit has highly polished all Glock OEM parts including the minus connector which we now know is a 4.5 lb connector.

Dave Spaulding says, well here, hear for yourself - enjoy



I imply nothing...I'm stating I don't believe the average person (police officers and guns are rather average to below average) will be able to recall how difficult it might be to pull through their "gritty" triggers. Heck, go ask officers or people who are involved in shootings with several officers and you'll get different versions of the fight...each sees, feels, smells, hears, and tocuhes things differently.

I don't read other thing about other's gunfights because it will only serve to add information to my head I don't feel I need. Absolutely nothing is predictable about a shooting.
 

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Great post. I'm going to start another thread in relation but I'm going to make it a separate thread so we can get different questions and opinions regarding the subject of trigger importance.
 
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