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It's a tad late and you are standing in line to place an order in a Chinese take-out (oh, we've already had one of these - no sweat). You were last in line until, when giving your order, a guy waltzes in off street and stands behind you.

You feel a pressure in the kidney area and a voice says quietly - ''I am gonna rob this joint, and you are gonna help me''. Is it a finger or a gun? Fortunately his area of contact is not on your piece so he does not know you carry.

Do you aquiesce and do what he says (for now)? Do you spin and make a sudden move out of line - to give time to draw? What if he has a gun instead of a loaded finger, and has finger on trigger? Boom - ouch!

Hard one to assess. Only mention this because of an incident when a buddy was in same basic situation and felt a pressure in his back. It was only in fact a big lady's purse!! :rolleyes: It did tho make him wonder - what if!! So I got to wonder also.
 

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Hummmmmmmm.........

OK...I'll be the first forum member to place my head on the ol' chopping block.
I would possibly temporarily feign cooperation until a more opportune moment presented itself. I am just guessing that with the information provided.
Bad situation with other innocents right in front of me and in his direct line of fire.
They deserve some serious consideration also. This would be the time to keep your body cool & have your brain searching super~overtime for the exact time to instantly react.
"Enter" the extreme importance of having your "draw & presentation" perfectly rehearsed ~ In addition...to having your QK ability highly honed.
If any armed citizen is NOT practiced and is NOT quick then my advice would be for them to probably just let it all "play out" ~ I myself might let it "Play" but, it would depend on the demeanor of the BG and whatever other critical info I could "gather" from being right in the thick of it.
Another variable is that the Chinese restaurant owner could be armed and he could easily assume that you are a Bad Guy. So...you could possibly be catching fire from two different directions if things go wrong. They call that "Caught In The Crossfire" and that would not be very much fun.
In a way I wonder how realistic these scenarios can be...minus the heightened awareness and extra sensory "information gathering and processing" that we should all do when caught up in the actual event.
If...I had the need to react then I personally carry at the shoulder in a very fast Alessi pull through rig...SO...in this exact situation and w/ the BG behind me ~ I have a slight advantage in getting weapon "in hand" undetected & then doing a fast turn to the left ~ using my left arm to get his weapon moved to his right & off my precious center while taking a simultaneous best head shot.
For me that would depend on if there were innocents to his/our right. Because...he will likely have time to react & fire. They (innocent people) are always probably an over heavily concern of mine. I personally would rather take my chances with an inept shooter & possibly catch one piece of lead than to be responsible for sending deadly projectiles towards innocent people just out for a Family Chinese Dinner. If...I were carrying at the waist on my strong side then this situation WOULD be even more complicated.
I'll be curious to read what other answers you get here.
 

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So...you could possibly be catching fire from two different directions if things go wrong.
Good point QK - very good point. As also your consideration of ''innocents''. Tho in this scenario - I see the bad guy as last to enter and so place is clear of casual folk.

All this leads me to think - leaving aside paranoia -- that it is wise to consider options even in safest of situations, lest they go belly up! It is perhaps what I do when driving sometimes - a blind curve might make me wonder ''what if'' - what if a vehicle coming other way appears on my side - where do I/could I go.?

All this is perhaps just yet again part and parcel of situational awareness - extended to consideration of options.

I do hope I don't come over as paranoid or macho - that is not me. But caring as I do for for being the best I can be - within my limitations due to age - I try to see many situations and analyze them. I would rather ''visit'' a scenario just the once thru imagination even, than be ''caught cold'' ..... much as I expect/hope to never use my piece in anger.

If I was not so concerned over all possibilities and my responsibilities, then I think my carry would be a half-hearted joke!
 

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I'll wait for an opportunity, probably when the cashier hands over the money - and hope for the best in the meantime. It's at that moment the BG is going to be focused on getting the cash and blowing away the help first most likely.

And I suppose I should add that after these two Chinese restaurant scenarios, I shouldn't have ordered take-out to be delivered tonight.

That driver might have killed me!
 

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I don't want to be mistaken for a BG either. Another option would be to immediately throw hands up in the air, start screaming like in a horror movie and run away...all simultaneously! :eek: I think the odds are the BG would at the least be a bit startled by the "unexpected" reaction....afterall guys just don't do that. After that, just seek cover or exit the place. If find cover, then observe and let things play out, obviously being at the ready. If you exit, you might find the BG exiting too, but in the opposite direction....afterall, you've just shown him that you are a looneytoon! :boggled:
 

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In This Scenario

And if the place is CLEAR of bystanders/innocents ~ in a situation with a possible gun already in my back then my brain meter is pre~programmed to "Whatever It Takes" to get his muzzle away from my spine & get the BG "dropped" and unable to function ASAP.
I am reacting aggressively in this situation. The BG is easily close enough for a guaranteed QK two to the noggin' and...in an empty eatery with his firearm to the side...he is past history.
The Chinese restaurant owner can start ordering Sears "Next Day" Installation for new carpet right after the Forensic Team leaves.
These days with any perp AS LIKELY to shoot as not and just for the Heckovit then I am taking control with "Chill and gather info" until the appropriate moment followed by an instant onslaught of aggressive action with my first focus to get the muzzle off my body followed by a simultaneous duo~invitation by the Reaper.
These days you CANNOT count on "Doing Whatever The Bad Guy Sez" & know that you are going to come through it all alive.
Those days are GONE!...and you must adapt your actions to the horrible reality of today. The reality is that even IF you are perfectly passive ~ you are as as likely to be shot as not.
 

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1. Distract with a question to break OODA loop...
2. I spin to my left...
3. Blocking away the "gun" with my left forearm...
4. Hook under his shoulder, moving into an arm bar take down...
5. When hand is behind his shoulder I apply a elbow smash to is face with right arm..
6. Repeat step 4 several times...
7. Take knee out or groin if possible...
8. Arm bar onto ground...
9. Pull weapon, place barrel on BG's head...
10. Say "do you feel lucky, punk?"

Ride tickertape parade... wake up... :)
 

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That does it.

I'm done with Chinese food. Better frozen pizza at home than getting shot going for egg rolls. :tongue:

I make a point of facing off to one side when I'm standing in line so I can keep an eye on who/what is behind me (using my perifinalular :wink: vision). It also gives a head start if I have to spin towards someone.

In these scenarios, I prefer to think in terms of "how would I have avoided that" rather than "what would I do if?" If I was caught, though (shame on me), I'd tend to sit tight and wait for an opportunity to (a) get the gun off of me, and (b) get control of the gun. At such close range I think it would be almost impossible to draw from concealment in time to solve the problem.

SSKC
 

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The smart play would probably be to wait things out and to see where it goes, but then I ain't so smart seeing as how I have a masters degree and still work as a cop.

First: I'm not going down witout fighting. By coming in and acting in the manner in which he did, the perp has signaled his intent to do violence. I have every reason to believe that I am about to suffer death or grave bodily harm, and the perp is in the act of a forcible felony. That is two of the three times a citizen is allowed to use deadly force under my state's law. I also have reason to believe that third parties are going to suffer death or grave bodily injury as well. That is the third instance that deadly force is allowed. So, I have every criminal base covered.

As soon as an opportunity presents itself, I am going to act.
 

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Really Good Replies To This Thread.

CombatEffective ~ You are a smart cop!
J. Linch ~ Because I shoulder carry I can turn & move his firearm & then just let the Jacketed Hollow Points accomplish my smashing blows to the face.
In this situation I can probaby save my right elbow for another day! :tongue:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Good input and thx.

Remember tho - the one thing that is unproven here is in fact ''the gun'' - or, is it just a finger/knuckle. That is for me a significant variable. By which I mean - if you spin, block, draw and administer Mozambique - to only find an unarmed doofus - oops - egg on face! Perhaps.

Hard to know eh! I think it could be construed as a lethal threat however - because of the verbals all but prooving it was a robbery motivated deal.

Probably for me - a mix of ''wait and see'' - even if that was mere seconds - but also then the assumption that as QK mentions - he will possibly/probably shoot anyways - these days yes - we have to assume such.

Therefore - attack mode and surprise have to be exploited. I like the ''looney'' surprise approach - or anyways - something that would be totally unexpected - few people can respond instantly to sudden sound or movement - probably a second or two can be gained to good effect.

Not meaning BTW to put folks off Chinese food! I love the stuff - even if it is full of MSG!! :smile:
 

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Combat?? you ARE one smart guy :biggrin:
I think your reasoning is very clear and concise. I would react as soon as I could, in order to protect myself first...and then the innocents. Then again now, I'm thinking here, and in my area, I don't know of any that don't carry anything under the counter, and besides, have you ever seen a Chinaman really upset? I think, that between them screaming at the perp, and my nect move to protect myself...I think he's a dead man either way :biggrin:
 

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P95: Remember, the law states that you must be in fear for your life or of grave bodily injury. Whether it be his finger or a muzzle, I do believe that you could legitimately argue that you were in fear for your life, etc. The only issue in question would be whether or not anyone else heard the perp say what he said.

Thanks for the compliments folks. :)

I'm always aware that if caught in any such situation I am dead as soon as the perps realize I am a cop. A quick search of me would reveal my badge. Therefore, I want to act before that point is reached.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thx CE - I am as ever - exploring all avenues etc.

Your badge - you mean the ''shoot-me-quick'' deal?? Joking aside - indeed that is not always the most useful thing on your person.

Stay safe.
 

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I have my chinese delivered. You ring, we bring!
 

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Lawrence - doubt I have had a chance to say Hi and welcome :smile:
I have my chinese delivered. You ring, we bring!
Did you mean ''You ling - we bling'' :biggrin: Apologies to my Chinese friends. :wink:
 

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Why does it always degrade to the "flied lice" jokes? :biggrin:


We had a Narc Lt. shoot at a guy for throwing Chinese food at him, good thing for the perp he was a lousy shot. Chinese food... "the other dangerous weapon..." :tongue:
 

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Jim_Linch said:
1. Distract with a question to break OODA loop...
2. I spin to my left...
3. Blocking away the "gun" with my left forearm...
4. Hook under his shoulder, moving into an arm bar take down...
5. When hand is behind his shoulder I apply a elbow smash to is face with right arm..
6. Repeat step 4 several times...
7. Take knee out or groin if possible...
8. Arm bar onto ground...
9. Pull weapon, place barrel on BG's head...
10. Say "do you feel lucky, punk?"

Ride tickertape parade... wake up... :)
I know the move well. It's fast and ferocious. You forgot one step however: During that armbar, assess to see whether it was his finger or a gun.

Okay, lets say it was a gun. arm bar exicuted, the gun is now facing the opposite direction, feel sorry for anyone standing behind him. Being left handed, i can not access my sidearm while maintaining the armbar. This guy is getting the pocket folder disarm. And i do mean disarm. Very messy.

we did a lot of contact distance shooting in my last tactical handgun class and i've been eager to give it a try.
 

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P95Carry said:
Thx CE - I am as ever - exploring all avenues etc.

Your badge - you mean the ''shoot-me-quick'' deal?? Joking aside - indeed that is not always the most useful thing on your person.

Stay safe.
True enough, but it lets me carry places that a CCW doesn't. Don't you just hate it when SCOTUS won't step up and clear up all of this carry law nonsense and just enforce the 2nd Amendment?
 
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