[P95Carry]

I meant to mention - last weekend's personal protection course I was teaching on, we finished up with the Tueller drill. Most of you will know it I am sure.

It had been a while since last doing or seeing one and I have to say - it is a salutary reminder of just how fast things can happen. I would recommend anyone to run this with a buddy at the range when possible.

We selected two of the ladies in the student group - the one to be shooting had achieved very reasonable proficiency - the other was a small person and so not in theory quite the fastest at running.

There was no shooting from leather on this course - just low ready and that is how we started this. With #2 lady's hand on shooter lady's (#1) shoulder - she proceeded to run away, that being signal for shooting lady to place two reasonable hits on target - at the sound of the first shot, the lady running had to drop a small bag and then on hearing shot #2, to stop.

Our shooting lady was not hyper fast onto target, but not too slow either and her shots were very a close double tap smile. #2 lady finished up barely beyond the bag at about IIRC 24 feet.

So - reverse this as being #2 lady running at #1 in attack mode - knife let's imagine - so even from low ready, not leather - #1 shooting lady would only just have gotten off her shots. Many reckon 21 feet is an average.

So - all the more reason IMO to get into that dry fire practice. Every millisecond saved is distance saved from attacker. I doubt I will ever be as quick as I once was (and that was not that rapid) - but do find with practice I do come up much better into a point aim that is very close indeed to a fully sighted one. Important too I reckon to make sure the cover garment is included in the draw because the ''sweep aside'' type manouver is a part of draw that potentially can slow things, badly.

Once more my friends - food for thought and a nudge to keep up that practice, even the humble dry fire :smile:

 

[Jim_Linch]

Remember to always be aware of your nearest cover and where you can "move off the line." Just like playing "what if" games in the car and leaving room to get out of a pinned in situation in traffic.

Move & Draw!
NOT
Draw & Move.

Airsoft is a great tool in these drills, even if you don't wnat to invest a lot of && in them, a $20 springer will pay for itself in awareness gained.

 

[KC135]

Awareness

Speed of presentation is not the problem--lack of awareness is.

When you are aware, gun will be in hand.

When you are aware, you will be ready to move off line.

when you are aware, you movement to cover, or movement to a location that slows the pace of opponent, will be automatic.

A couple of weeks ago, we ran it with the agressor seated, 1.39, back to victim, 1.37, etc.

If you wish to survive, you must be aware of what is going on around you.

 

[P95Carry]

KC - 100% true indeed. I will always place even poor yellow over pure white any day!

There is tho even so the chance always that either in a brief unintended ''white moment'' or simply due to Murphy and an aggressor's shere darned surprise - we still may have to experience this first hand.

However we interpret something like Tueller - it does till provoke useful thought IMO - such that even if we are in orange and unable to create enough distance we still have that awareness of how rapidly things can go South - thus my thinking on practice (AND awareness, of course).

IF the worst happens, we do need all the edge we can. I agree with Jim also - tho I doubt my draw would not, in extremis, include movement - not one or other as separate but in combination.

As ever - think of and practice, best we can - for all eventualities.

 

[Jim_Linch]

I should have said "Move while drawing" that's what I meant if possible. I don't agree that gun will be in hand. Things happen too fast even with condition yellow.

Last night I was snooping around a suspect's house when a guy a few houses down lit his cig. in the pitch black off to my side. He was totally hidden until then, it is a reality check that you can not see everything, even though I was doing my best "secret squirrel" impersonation.

I was in Bright yellow condition and Murphy still was there.

 

[P95Carry]

"secret squirrel" impersonation.

LOL!!! :biggrin:

 

[Tangle]

Hey P220STCarry, err I mean, P45Carry,

That's an interesting way to run the Tueller drill; I especially liked the two shot consideration.

I have to say that even in condition orange the situation still may not justify presenting our gun. Condition orange means we have a specific, potential problem, but the problem it may not be a threat at the moment. For example, through our awareness, we see two guys that really arouse our suspicion. They are moving in response to us - we move, they move. We now must treat them as a problem which could become a threat. We are now in condition orange - we have identified what may be a potential threat, can we present our gun? No, and yet here we are in orange.

If one or both suddenly charge us, now we can probably get by with presenting our gun. But it's so tenuous. Suppose they run right by us and try to stop a car that has started rolling and is about to roll into a child?

There are situations where we won't be able to present our until the attack begins. A fast draw may give us a better chance in these situations.

Then, about stepping off the line of attack. I am a firm believer in this. I have been brainwashed by Steve Trani that stepping at 45 degree lines is best. But, it's a bit more complicated than that. If you step too soon, you have disclosed your action and the attacker will have more time and opportunity to adjust his line of attack. So the rule I have been taught is wait until the last moment you feel safe with and then move. The longer you can wait, the more efective the movement is likely to be. Of course if you wait too long...

 

[RSSZ]

My way of thinking is this...... If I want to stab you,mug you,rob you,rape you,etc,etc, I would want to get absolutely as close to you as I could before I made my move on you. I would not make eye contact with you except for just a glance to simi size you up. As I was coming toward you I might even smile at you and/or say"good morning sir". If we were on the street I would not cross over to your side of the street just before I got to you. I would do that BEFORE you could see me. I would not have my weapon deep down in my overcoat pocket. I would have it already in my hand that was in my pocket or if a small weapon,with the palm of my hand facing away from you. If I had a knife it would be up my sleeve with the grip in my hand facing away from you. We ought to realize that the bad guys(as in the movies) aren't going to holler to each other,"lets get him",or come running up to you,or chase you down an alley. The really stupid bad guys have already been killed by the good guys. The smart ones will wait til the absolute LAST SECOND before they "show their hand". How will you prepare for that. Orange will help ever so slightly(maybe). You can't shoot,or even point your weapon at someone no matter how close they come to you as long as they don't touch you. Lets "tell it like it is"!----------

 

[Tangle]

Somebody's signature line goes something like, "Respect everyone you meet, but have a plan to kill them." That's not exactly it, but close enough maybe.

I thought that was a rather immature and reckless statement until I gradually realized that was exactly my mindset! I am forever visualizing how to "deal" with the guy appoaching me. When we see someone approaching us, we can watch his hands and maybe glance at his face, but his face may be deceiving and his face can't hurt us; his hands can. If his hand(s) is in his pocket(s) or out of sight somewhere else, we should assume he has a weapon and be as ready as we can be to defend ourself. Present our gun? No, of course not. But we can be ready to respond by moving, running, or whatever is required to make time and distance.

RSSZ,
I sure hope you're not a BG! I agree with much of what you say, but, the situation you discribe is that of a GG NOT in orange because orange means a potential threat has been identified and we should immediately begin evasive and protective tactics. The GG in your example would have to be in white, unaware, or yellow, but not recognized the potential threat.

I think it would be pretty difficult for a BG to close on a person in condition orange. Remember condition orange means a potential threat has been identified and our behavior should change the moment we go to condition orange.

 

[RSSZ]

OK---then here's the ?------- If you see me from afar,and I start walking toward you(at night in the Wally World parking lot). Just how close would you let me get to you. If I walked right up,nose to nose to you,would you......A. Draw your weapon and stick it in my face .....B. Just go ahead and shoot me before I got within 7 yds. of you......C. Start running accross the parking lot. ????? OBTW>> I am a good guy. A realistic good guy.-------- P.S. Remember that legally I can get as close to you as I want to. No matter what you say to me or no matter what kind of warning that you give me.

 

[Tangle]

OK---then here's the ?------- If you see me from afar,and I start walking toward you(at night in the Wally World parking lot). Just how close would you let me get to you. If I walked right up,nose to nose to you,would you......A. Draw your weapon and stick it in my face .....B. Just go ahead and shoot me before I got within 7 yds. of you......C. Start running accross the parking lot. ????? OBTW>> I am a good guy. A realistic good guy.-------- P.S. Remember that legally I can get as close to you as I want to. No matter what you say to me or no matter what kind of warning that you give me.

Well, first, it wouldn't happen that way, at least not with me. I would allow you to come to about 10 feet before I start to move to get a car between us. Then I would continue to watch you to see if you still come after me. If you do, then you're going to have to chase me around cars with me yelling stop, don't come any closer, until it is well established that you are chasing me and will not stop. This is all being caught on the WalMart security cameras by the way.

You say that are GG, but what GG would chase someone around a car with them yelling stop and go away? Would I be correct in presuming that you've never done this and never will? And, I bet nobody else would unless they had something nefarious in mind.

But to continue. if security or police have not arrived and I see you are about to catch me, I would be fearful that you intended serious bodily harm or worse and - guess what comes out? My gun and another yell to stop and go away. If you continue your charge? Well I guess we'd both find out if I could shoot someone that I thought represented serious bodily harm or a deadly threat.

But, the Tueller drill is about seeing and identifying a man with a knife 21 feet away who is clearly a threat. The purpose of the drill is to show how quickly a man with a knife can close and slash you. It's not going to solve clandestine approaches.

Bumper posted an excellent account entitled, IIRC, "Why I carry a gun" and I believe it happened in a parking lot kinda like you described.

I am curious, given the same ?------- you described above, except our roles are reversed, what would you do?

 

[RSSZ]

You dropped your wallet/some money,forgot a bag at the cash register,left your cell phone at the sporting goods counter,someone told me that you were a famous movie star and I wanted your autograph. There are all kinds of reasons why I might follow you throughout the store and parking lot. Although I would not(nor would anybody else in their right mind)continue to follow you if you yelled at me to stop. As we try to prepare ourselves for the worst case sanerio we have to realize that things are not always cut and dried. The BG's do not all look the same. Granted,you are a real dummie just for choosing to be a BG---BUT--- some of them are real smart(street wise). They have nothing to do all day but think of ways to get close to you so thay can harm you. I'm sure that some of them have this down to a "fine science". All I do and would like to see others do is to live our lives realistically. Forget TV and the movies. We can be as prepared as possible. But totally ready for anything ?? ----------

 

[Tangle]

You dropped your wallet/some money,forgot a bag at the cash register,left your cell phone at the sporting goods counter,someone told me that you were a famous movie star and I wanted your autograph. There are all kinds of reasons why I might follow you throughout the store and parking lot. Although I would not(nor would anybody else in their right mind)continue to follow you if you yelled at me to stop. As we try to prepare ourselves for the worst case sanerio we have to realize that things are not always cut and dried. The BG's do not all look the same. Granted,you are a real dummie just for choosing to be a BG---BUT--- some of them are real smart(street wise). They have nothing to do all day but think of ways to get close to you so thay can harm you. I'm sure that some of them have this down to a "fine science". All I do and would like to see others do is to live our lives realistically. Forget TV and the movies. We can be as prepared as possible. But totally ready for anything ?? ----------

RSSZ,
I agree with the above, we can't be ready for anything and everything. And I thought about our posts last night after I got off line and realized we were addressing different situations. I was addressing a condition orange situation and you were essentially addressing a condition yellow or white.

By my Gunsite training, if you are a stranger and you walk toward me and try to approach too closely, I will move away a bit to see if you continue toward me. It's the way I was trained - not to be paranoid, but when a stranger walks up to you or tries to, the orange flag has to go up. We have no idea why this stranger is approaching us. Maybe he says he's just trying to return something I've dropped, or maybe that's just a ruse to get me off guard and get close to me.

I enjoy devising a plans of action for every person that approaches me. I try to think, how do I handle this if he curls behind me after he passes. I try to remember the obvious person may very well be a diversion for his partner who's trying to blind side me.

Can I be ready for anything and everything? I don't think so, but it's a good goal to work toward and I have made some progress. But when a stranger says, "Excuse me, I seem to be lost, can you show me on this map how to get to..." I turn orange.

But again, this thread was about a Tueller drill which deals with a person with a knife 21 feet away. The primary purpose of the drill is not to prepare us for anything, but to help us see how dangerous a person can be even 21 feet away.