[Kompact9]

While googling for one shot stops, I ran across some statistics that got my attention. See the following:

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15

Scroll down to One-shot Drops (approximately halfway down the page) I tried to format this information in this post, but couldn't figure out how to format it properly.:embarassed:

First, the number of LEO's KIAed indicates how dangerous a job they have. Second, the number KIAed while wearing body armor is way more than I thought it would be. Third, approximately 10% were KIAed with their own weapon. This statisitic brought to mind some things I hadn't given as much thought as I should've:

1. In the event of a less than one shot stop (most of the time) how would one prevent the loss of your weapon if the BG keeps coming and you're in a reload situation?
2. Is there, in the forum's opinion/experience, any leverage advantage (small frame vs. large frame weapons) in retaining your weapon in a struggle?
3. Have any of the forum had any training cover this aspect of CCW?
If so, would you share experience or sources?

I've some ideas of my own, such as moving to put cover/distance between you and the BG, if possible. What are some suggestions from the forum?

 

[rstickle]

Interesting article. This sort of goes back to the thread we had running a week or so ago about how many shots. Seems like the bottom line should be keep shooting till they go down and stay there.

 

[rocky]

I think alot of LEO's who lose their guns is an intial gun grab, or a scuffle then a gun grab. Hopefully no one will know you have a gun until ya need it. Everyone can see, and knows LEO's are packing.

 

[Rob72]

1)If your weapon is empty, it is a club. If the BG is too close for you to reload, it's time to go hands-on, preferrably with a blade/edged impact tool.

2)Size of the weapon would be less of an issue than physical dominance of the encounter. You can pretty much count on broken finger(s), if your weapon is wrenched from your hand. I guess my thinking here is, why are you trying to retain an empty weapon in a clinch? Club, gouge, slash and stab to get them off. If the weapon isn't empty, that's a very different issue, revolving more around situational awareness/maintaining distance/cover.

3)My experiences aren't with firearms, but "personal space", working EMS. The interview stance applies in any encounter, and bear in mind that anything on your person may be grabbed to beat/stab you with. (I never had any desire to be whopped with my mag light, or have someone dig a pair of shears out of me.) Before physical contact, "Command Presence", and dominating the agressor by use of terrain, commands, repellants (OC/Mace/etc), hopefully will get them to back down. After contact, it's basic weapon retention/side guarding, and force. Retention can be slightly more problematic for CCW, since you won't normally wear a Level III Duty rig.

 

[jarhead79]

I think this pretty much answers the thread from the other day, on how many shots would you take? Don't stop shooting until you no longer have a target or threat.

 

[RobL]

Good questions. A couple things come to mind get some weapons retention training.
First, Ayoob and some of his associates teach The Lindel Method of Weapon Retention. I am sure there are some other instructors out there teaching retention methods.
I used to train at a gym with other folks and we practiced draw & fire and weapons retention while grappling and getting attacked; kicks and punches knives etc. Learn to defend your gun or draw your BUG while engaging and don’t stand still and let them come at you-if possible.

Second: adjust your point of aim: try and break the pelvis or do a Mozambique. Too many cases were multiple center of mass shots were not immediately effective.
Rob

 

[Betty]

Unlike cops who wear their guns openly, we have the advantage of being undercover, so the aggressor hopefully won't know we're armed, greatly reducing the chance we'd have a gun-grabbing issue.

1. In the event of a less than one shot stop (most of the time) how would one prevent the loss of your weapon if the BG keeps coming and you're in a reload situation?

If the gun is empty, I won't have to worry about him shooting me with my own weapon, but he might beat me with it if he gets it away from me. A hasty retreat is in order; I'll need some distance to draw my BUG from my ankle. Alternatives are to use my now empty primary as a striking weapon or use my knife, and any hand-to-hand against an opponent who is most likely bigger and stronger isn't very appealing to me.

2. Is there, in the forum's opinion/experience, any leverage advantage (small frame vs. large frame weapons) in retaining your weapon in a struggle?

I guess a smaller weapon would be harder to grab since it's a smaller object, which would be a positive thing for you. You can either use your empty gun as a striking tool or toss it so he can't.

3. Have any of the forum had any training cover this aspect of CCW? If so, would you share experience or sources?

I practice shooting from retention up to around 5 yards.

 

[P95Carry]

This is an important issue. Betty has covered a lot nicely.

Certainly the one thing we have in our favor is by time gun is seen - it is probably too late for the BG. Cop's particular problem (instance it seems our late PA trooper shot and killed the other day - own gun it'd seem) is that they have to get close to someone - patting down etc.

Get a big guy who moves fast - retention could be, and obviously sometimes is - a very serious problem.

Our friend should always be as best we can make it - distance!! facilitated by good con' yellow too. If our gun has to come out it'd better be deployed very quick.

 

[Ti Carry]

Personally I don't leave it all up to the gun I'm carrying to get the job done. Before we had CCW here in Missouri I took and still take Tenshin Aikido to protect myself! This is Steven Seagal's own form of Aikido and Sensei Seagal has many senior student's that are 4th and 5th Dan's (4th degree and 5th degree black belt's) I am lucky enough to have a Tenshin Aikido Dojo here in Saint Louis with one of Sensei Seagal's most senior student's to teach the incredible effortless power of Aikido.

Many SLPD LEO's attend classes here to learn defensive tactical training that help them on the street and they use it daily. Women can and will put down attackers with little effort and put a BG in so much pain he will beg for her to stop. Believe me, I have been in submission hold's by women student's in class using Tenshin Aikido techniques that have wanted to make me cry out for mercy and I cannot do a thing about it.

You learn how to avoid being taken down, grabbed, stabbed, hit, kicked, punched, etc, to where you control the outcome of a confrontation with someone. If the BG has a gun pointed at me well that's another story! cause this ain't Hollywood and their isn't any redoes in real life scenarios. Although Sensei Seagal can and will take a weapon from you at will, that take's year's and year's of training, practice and dedication.

I do feel however that with certain gun's such as semi-auto's I can disable the use of the gun if I am close enough and the time is right to give me a split second of time that I can twist and roll the BG's arm to the point of almost breaking it if not breaking it (my choice) were he would willingly and without a choice let the gun go. We practice this with Knives too! although wooden prop's you have to believe you can and will do it when you need to.

All the training in the world won't keep someone from shooting you if they want to! but training will let you keep your gun! so I carry a CCW also now that I can and know that I have the ability to defend myself from a BG taking my weapon from me thank's to Tenshin Aikido.

I have seen no CCW course's that teach this and nor should they unless that person is highly trained to teach it to you. This could be why you don't see it being taught or they are Nieve to think that a BG can't take a gun from you, disarming you and possibly using your own weapon to kill you.

To me there is much more than just CCW training locally! at Gunsite! or Thunder Ranch! and the like. I feel that you have to personally be able to defend yourself with a weapon and without a weapon to be effective in a confrontation with a BG or BG's. Remember BG's don't fight fair and you have to be willing to do things that will allow you to win the fight, gun or no gun.

Ti.

 

[older gunner]

There was a patrol officer killed in my area about four years ago by a perp that got the officers gun in a struggle. The problem the LEO's have is that they carry open and they always move towards the threat. As private individuals, we don't expose our weapons, hence they are hard to grab, and we don't advance to the threat. That said, if we do draw, it is to fire, and when you start that action, it is best to keep firing until the BG is down and out. I was taught to use a ready position where the gun is held back, against the chest, rather than outstretched. Then, extend the weapon forward when you're ready to fire. This makes it harder for the BG to snatch the weapon in a surprise advance. You can fire at an advancing BG from this position if necessary. Thankfully, I never had to try this out, but I do practice that way.

 

[FireBreather01]

Very good responses thus far. I would certainly augment any CCW training with the Lindel method as it is very effective IF you practice it, like anything else, regularly. Secondly, this points out a few other obvious points, a couple that have been raised - shoot until the threat is eliminated, the pelvic shot is a viable and effective alternative to a charging threat, and another point - DO NOT get in to physical altercations while armed.

Many altercations end up rolling around on the floor/ground. I have trained in boxing and Tae Kwon Do and can hold my own but I would not want to end up wrestling with a larger stronger or drugged up BG that just might find my gun. Check out Extreme Fighting or Tough Man competitions - 99.9% of them end up on the mat - I don't care how many Black Belts or Golden Gloves they've won - when a Gracie disciple faces them they might as well throw in the towel.

Learn some basic retention techniques, practice them, and stay out of physical altercations at all costs. Even if you get the guy down - his buddy may be right behind you! And they both might have black belts in State Penitentiary - a very effective means of fighting!

If you've drawn and the BG is still advancing shot placement is critical - learn to shoot while moving away from the threat, move laterally or at an angle away from him, time and distance are your allies, use them, throw something in his way - a garbage can, a package, throw your purse or wallet at him if you have to, move around an object, roll under a car - anything to increase time and distance. Practice these techniques while dry-firing, then, under carefully supervised situations, practice some live. It's been said before - you won't rise to the occasion - you will default to your level of practice, training, and mind-set.

You are carrying a firearm for the prevention of your own, a loved one's, or another innocent's life - you need to protect that life-saving, and possibly life-taking, option at all costs.

 

[RSSZ]

Betty, For weapon retention,I find that the closer to your body you hold your weapon,the harder it is for a much larger/stronger person to take it away from you.(I train with a couple of monsters) Makin' shots held this close is another thing. Also,I have trained with alot of women. Several as small,or possibly smaller that yourself. I intentionally get them really pissed off. When they got mad,they got GD mean. They get agressive and very, "in your face", fast. I would respectfully suggest that you work on the mood change thing. You don't have to stand toe to toe and have a boxing match with them. Get mad,get mean,come up with a blade"outta nowhere" and do allot of very fast damage. ( carry a streight blade if allowed by law)I tell my female students"make 'em pay". Some of the ladies absolutely amaze me. If your weapon is empty, even if you have a reload on you belt or in you pocket,and the BG is real close,or has physical contact with you,consider dropping your weapon and grabbing your blade. I have had my training partner actually try to reach down and pick up a weapon that the slide is locked back. With blade in hand---he's toast.----------

 

[RSSZ]

FireBreather01, I completely agree with the Gracie disciple statement. In my training I have won over the bigger guys---AND--- have been beaten by a 125 pound female. It,for the most part,is not the size of the dog in the fight,but the size of the fight in the dog. Once the fight is on the ground it will usually be won or lost right there.--------

 

[BlueLion]

What I currently think would work for me is a snub nose and aggressive forward movement. I feel that after 5 rounds of Speer Gold Dots center mass then it's a problem. I suggest forward movement while squeezing and moving off line of the BG if he has weapon.

Thus, engage the BG while moving to his left if he is right handed and right if he is left handed. I would think shots precise and distance, distance, distance. We as civilians should avoid long engagements because more than likely you will be alone. However, like Betty said most BG won't expect you to be armed and this may initially shock them, especially if you are aggressive, shouting and squeezing. :aargh4:

 

[BlueLion]

Moreover, if it gets to hand to hand, regardless if you are trained or not things have gone bad, and you should seek to end the comfrontation quickly as possible.

 

[rocky]

2 thoughts. Either press the attack or flee. Which ever is the best course of action at the time. If you get a pelvis shot and circle , chances are the bG will not bea ble to effectively attack.

 

[QKShooter]

Addition

The firearm is the tool in hand & the human being is the total weapon.
Ideally, first initial shot placement is the key & obviously better training & mindset conditioning would go a long way toward solving subsequent..."Huh? ~ Failure To Drop" issues on the part of the Bad Guy.
One advantage that the modern truly Bad Guy may have over most Police Officers is that they have been shot before & have survived the shooting (wear the entry/exit battle scars like a body tattoo) & thus are already somewhat subliminally pre~programmed to know that they can continue to attempt to kill after being shot.
Additionally some are mind~numbed by drugs and some honestly don't care if they live or die...as long as they can take somebody else with them.
Reading the FBI report shows that those Good Guys seemed to be pre~conditioned to thinking that any HIT is synonymous with WILL STOP and it just is not.
It's a grim reality that the bad guy might not STOP with any "Less Than Lethal" hit and the Good Guy MUST NOT be stopped with any less than fatal injury to his/her/body/person.
The Good Guy must not stop or "hesitate & evaluate" any injury/bullet wound should he/she be hit or stabbed or gravely injured.

The exact instant that you are injured & your assailant is still alive...then (in that very same instant) you have just bought your ticket either to Hell or to the Pearly Gates.
You just bought & paid for the ticket.
If you ultimately "Take The Trip Or Not" then depends on if you can terminate (by any means possible) who is trying to kill you.
For me...I am pulling out all the stops for my chance to "stick around" until my personal pumper stops pumping. Even if that means that my last Earthly Action will be that I have to bite the Bad Guys jugular vein in half if I have no other "metal tools" available.

It's important to pre~acknowledge the reality (in advance) that you could possibly die fighting hard to save your own life.
It's important to do that now or soon.
There are much worse ways to die & many more personally embarrassing ways to exit Planet Earth.
I would rather die fighting hard to save my ass than to drop over while unplugging my toaster or falling off my porch roof trying to clean leaves out of my house gutter.

I honestly feel that it's important for everybody to come to grips with the stark reality of the possibility of their untimely "early & unplanned" demise. Only then will you be able to accomplish everything possible to prevent same from happening in a SHTF situation. That is just my opinion on that.
None of us are here with a written guarantee for a peaceful ripe old age or a peaceful death "Due To Natural Causes"
You know I could keep typing for DAYS on this subject...STOP QKShooter!!!...No More! Spare Us Please! :twak:
Oh Geesh....I am really sidetracking myself and rambling on into deeper issues than I should in this post.
I'll shut up now...before I end up writing a book.

 

[sojourner]

I'm really new to the board, but I will add my opinion.

Blindly counting on any type of martial arts training is just as bad as counting on a specific carry weapon for safety. And I have been training in MA for years. The weapon is the mind and its ability to bring to bear tools available to the body to dominate a situation. The weapon is NOT the latest sho-dan, ni-dan etc... in mac dojo karate or sig HK nickel plated yada yada yada.

It is the mind and the will to dominate/survive. After that, it's the training to use the tools availiable.

I hope I am never complacent w/ the fact that I carry or the fact that I train in MA. And that I never rest on the laurels of my carry weapon or my certificates in martial arts. It is the unbridled will to survive/dominate/destroy that will allow someone to go home alive.

 

[KevinInstructor]

Being a retention/disarming instructor certified as both civilian and LEO, my take is this is not enough for what you are asking, it is part of the equation. The other parts which will assist in defending your gun are empty hand tactics and ground tactics beings you most likely will go to the ground. Weapon retention skills work better from leverage then strength based tactics IMHO although some of the technques I learned in DT training for LEO based their techniques more on strength then leverage.

If possible when firing is always be moving, make the bad guys effort of getting you as difficult as possible. Practice speed reloads, I practice more with a 1911 then my Glocks because you have a narrower area to place the magazine. If you can do the 1911 then you can do just about any pistol. Getting a new mag into your gun can make the difference between the possible death to successfully defending yourself.

 

[Kompact9]

Thanks everyone...good replies, and as always, more food for thought.