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Discussion Starter #1
Today I attended a Vehicle Tactics Course on by Bob Derosiers from Argive Defense System. I was there to kind of hang out, be a safety at times, chime in, and be the bad guy for several scenarios.


There were no “new” shooters in the class. Everyone had previous training and was range safe. With 10 students in the class, we had age’s ranging from a 20 yr old with several attendees in their late 50’s. Many were prior military and a few had shot some IPSC and IDPA.


Without getting into the specifics of the course here are some observations that I see over and over in firearms courses, especially during FOF training. We had airsofts for the good guys and props for the bad guys including airsofts, clubs, knives and box cutters.


Students habitually walk right by or totally dismiss people with visible weapons in their hands like clubs and knives.


If the student draws down on a attacker and things become static he usually begins to give verbal commands that are common to police such ask get down, cross you feet etc. While giving commands no students retreated to a better position of cover even when it was steps away.


Once students get both hands on their gun they become glued there even if they are being attacked with a club or a knife. Not one student released his weak hand to defend himself. This at best promotes a mutual slaying.


When both hands are glued to the gun the students only move straight back or straight forward.


During the entire day, not one headshot was counted. The majority of rounds struck the hand/arm holding the weapon, and COM.


During force on force no students reported closing one eye or contemplating which eye to shoot with.


Using a t-shirts for a concealment garment is likely to end up in a fouled draw, especially if you need to draws one handed.


You cannot open your door, pop your seatbelt, clear the seatbelt, get out of the car and draw you pistol in one move. At combat speed there is a very high screw up rate doing this drill.


Shooters are good about not getting their gun caught up the seatbelt but usually end up getting the seatbelt caught on reaction side gear like cell phones, magazines and lights. They get about a foot away from the car and then yanked back in by the belt.


Once students encounter and initial threat they sometimes scan left and right but seldom to the rear, once they verbally engage the threat the disregard the rear. I was able to walk up and execute two students while my partner was breaking in their car. This was in broad daylight.
Just some thoughts that I hope provoke a discussion.
 

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Time to enroll in another class...this has stirred my interests...thanks for the post.:hand10:
 

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Most excellent post once again! :hand10:

Always some great food for thought and things to incorporate into training.

Of course, the best bet is to attend these "specialized" or advance level training and learn from a structured environment.

Fortunately, I have such a school in Missouri which offers a myriad of training in everything from the very basics clear up to the high speed, low drag advance training including classes which focus exclusively on certain tactics like fighting from a car and the like.

Great post mercop!
 

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When there is a "known" threat, often people get so glued on them.... they never think , maybe there is more than one of them and to especially check their backside.

Good post. Interesting about seat belts, etc.... I never use them.... this is one reason, and there are others.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
As far as LE not wearing seatbelts, it is a pet peeve of mine. Guys wear armor, carry two guns and all kinds of other stuff to allow them to survive and then don't wear a seatbelt. As a field training officer I would get on them about it. Cops killed feloniously and those killed in MVA are about 50/50 and many more cops are injured in MVA that being shot. I have personally had seatbelts save me twice in police car wrecks. Here is my simple rule of thumb, if the car is stopped longer then a red light you pop the seatbelt. And you do it the same way every time, by the numbers,
 

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You have a significant increase of being seriously injured or die of a broken neck when the airbag deploys if you are not properly restrained with a seat belt during an otherwise survivable crash.

Airbags are not intended to be the primary restraint. If you look at your steering wheel, the airbag cover usually has the words Air Bag SRS embossed on it, which stands for Air Bag Supplemental Restraint System.

I would think it would suck big time to die of a C-2 fracture when the airbag hits you in the face in nothing more than a 20-25 mph crash. Or worse yet, become a quadriplegic and having to live a long life with that disability because you weren't wearing your seat belt.
 

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Thanks for the insights. Great information on checking your backside. I would add a check up and down. I learned that the hard way as a kid from my older brother and cousins in snowball fights. I always look up at low hanging branches and down in ditches.
 

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Excellent info, and a good reminder of the vehicle as a focal point for additional training and practice.

As for seatbelts, I've known too many cases where they, without a doubt, saved the lives of the vehicle occupants. I always wear mine.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
You are sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, you cell phone rings next to you in the seat, you glace down and...bang, you just bumped in the the car in front of you, it is hot and you can hear the driver curse as he smashes his hands on the steering wheel. All of a sudden he opens the door and begins to advance towards you.



He continues to advance and brandishes a knife saying he is "going to teach you a lesson" You are blocked on all four sides with no where to go, you are armed. Are you alone? (This shooter draws and fires rounds from inside his vehicle, the bad guy reacts to the COM rounds, some hit his chest, others his hands and arms because they are COM)




A student engages a target out his drivers side window, after first engaging the first target at his door. He is using Center Axis Relock.



Took me about 45 seconds to cut this neat patch of glass out of the vehicle using my RMJ Tactical Shrike Tomahawk. Injured occupants do not need glass in their eyes and wounds if he can be avoided. What other tool a first responder could carry and use by himself would provide this precision. The tomahawk is not just for fighting anymore.
 

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great post. Thanks. Brought back some memories.
fwiw-back in the day my training emphasized getting out of the vehicle (get OUT get OUT (I can still hear the PTO yelling).
I am looking for an arizona based tune up. Gunsite maybe, but still looking. Maybe brownie? This looks like a great exercise. Of course I also can hear the other Driving instructor yelling (Why I always asked myself, my hearing is just fine) about avoiding getting vehicle compression as the way to avoid an ambush in my offensive driving classes. Ha. Never done learning.
 

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I wish the shooting ranges would put in some clunker cars so we could practice 'shooting from a vehicle' scenario. It would be nice practice getting around the steering wheel, getting off the seatbelt, draw from a sitting position, etc.
I do currently practice stopping far enough behind the car ahead so I can see plenty of asphalt between me and his rear bumper. Leaves me enough room to get my car out and around and drive away if necessary. I stress this to my wife often.
Ohio Rusty ><>
 

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also scan left/right/rear. condition yellow. I prefer to not be directly across looking left or right at a person in traffic. Why make it easy. Also scan to the rear. Why? Once watched some fool walking from behind stopped traffic hitting up people for a handout. This perp looked agressive, loud and very erratic. Those with windows open, radio up, condition white you could see jolt to condition orange when the dirtbag reached in for a hand out. Probably soiled some interiors would be my guess.
This happened to my wife once as well (you try to explain :), but I dont know about you...but "telling" my wife anything is a non-starter), good for us though our doberman (head on wifes lap) was way ahead of my wife and the perps hand only got about 1" into the car. Funny how fast that situation changed.
But I digress.
 

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Thanks for the post. I had a friend killed by the airbag. She slid into the ditch at slow speed and wasn't wearing her seat belt. I, too, never pull up to stopped traffic window to window. This subject bears more study than found in most schools.
 
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