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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There has been a lot of emphasis put on the pistol presentation and now I’m getting a lot of inquiries on how we run the carbine. This our FIST-FIRE Combative Carbine method of weapons presentation:



It’s exactly the same as our handgun “Full Extension” shooting position where the left elbow is locked straight. The Only difference is we pull the firing hand back and onto the pistol grip for the carbine.



For comparison, here's our F-F "Full Extension" Handgun Shooting Position with left arm locked straight:

 

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I use the thumb over bore method (c-grip) as well. Makes recoil a thing of the past. It makes multiple target acquisitions easier as well...
 

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How come I like picture number three best. Nice grip but, watch that trigger finger.:smile:
 

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A video about the subject..Sums up the technique well

 
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I know that after years of shooting the standing position in high-power competition I could never acquire those other standing shooting stances.

16-yr-old shooting standing off-hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQIGdY5pfCA
 
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There was a gun in that third picture. HMMM I didnt see one. Come to think of it I didnt see a carbine either.
 

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That stance is very awkward for me. I came from the weaver/modified weaver handgun. I was taught to shoot a rifle by my father/grand father my grandfather taught marksmanship training to the Army in WWI and both were competitive rifle shooters.

What benefit does that shooting stance have that the old school stance does not? Even doing lots of full auto fire I never had my off hand arm fully extended like that.
 

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That stance is very awkward for me. I came from the weaver/modified weaver handgun. I was taught to shoot a rifle by my father/grand father my grandfather taught marksmanship training to the Army in WWI and both were competitive rifle shooters.

What benefit does that shooting stance have that the old school stance does not? Even doing lots of full auto fire I never had my off hand arm fully extended like that.
Recoil and target acquisition. It virtually takes all sway out of the weapon. :hand5:
 

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Neither of those is an issue for me now. If you think an AR has recoil you need a real gun.
True, but most of us are not built like a grizzly bear....:image035:
 

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No matter how big or strong one may be, the further back your support hand is from the front of the gun, the more muzzle rise there will be. Also, supporting the front of the rifle on the underside will not control muzzle rise as much as a grip n line with the bore.

It doesn't matter about size, a more aggressive grip on an AR will allow faster follow up shots or more rounds on target during full auto fire.

People think too much in terms of recoil when we talk about grip and stance when muzzle rise is the real issue. I can handle the rifle pushing to the rear and stay on target. A muzzle rising is another story and I need that to stay as flat as possible.
 
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No matter how big or strong one may be, the further back your support hand is from the front of the gun, the more muzzle rise there will be. Also, supporting the front of the rifle on the underside will not control muzzle rise as much as a grip n line with the bore.

It doesn't matter about size, a more aggressive grip on an AR will allow faster follow up shots or more rounds on target during full auto fire.

People think too much in terms of recoil when we talk about grip and stance when muzzle rise is the real issue. I can handle the rifle pushing to the rear and stay on target. A muzzle rising is another story and I need that to stay as flat as possible.
He understands that. I was just having some fun with him. After 23 years in the border patrol, 40bob knows his rifles...:yup:
 

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He understands that. I was just having some fun with him. After 23 years in the border patrol, 40bob knows his rifles...:yup:
Good! I was kind of putting it out there for everyone though. Last time this came up people couldn't understand how a different grip would affect 5.56.
 

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Good! I was kind of putting it out there for everyone though. Last time this came up people couldn't understand how a different grip would affect 5.56.
I fully understand and agree with you. I have been using it myself for a few years. Some folks have a hard time believing the difference in the 5.56. Steve really shows how effective the grip is...
 

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No matter how big or strong one may be, the further back your support hand is from the front of the gun, the more muzzle rise there will be. Also, supporting the front of the rifle on the underside will not control muzzle rise as much as a grip n line with the bore.

It doesn't matter about size, a more aggressive grip on an AR will allow faster follow up shots or more rounds on target during full auto fire.

People think too much in terms of recoil when we talk about grip and stance when muzzle rise is the real issue. I can handle the rifle pushing to the rear and stay on target. A muzzle rising is another story and I need that to stay as flat as possible.

I use my off hand to pull the gun into my shoulder, similar to how you are holding the sub gun in your avatar. I like to use the same grip on each rifle and tend to keep my elbow tucked as I did come from a target shooting background. It also works out to the same grip If I am prone or firing from a field expedient position. I find that what works in the real world is better for me than what wins 3 gun matches. It is also why I like 2 point slings, they serve 2 purposes for me, carry the rifle and use a hasty sling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Some thoughts on long gun weight and stance:

If you’ve got a heavy, long rifle (and you’re not 6’-5” and weigh 300 lbs) you may not be able to hold the rifle up with the left arm as shown below. Women especially have to lift/hold the gun forearm up from underneath. This is why we all tend to think “Lighter is Righter” for a modern day fighting carbine.



Also, short, light and handy makes target transitions faster without over swinging as with a heavy barrel. The lighter guns start moving sooner and stop quicker. But they also rise more under recoil (even the 5.56). The forward "straight off arm" affords MUCH more recoil and muzzle control. No chicken wing either when looking at it from the front.

We found this out in competition and I have rolled it over into combative applications.

And yeah, I did invent this. It blended seamlessly with my pistol presentation at full extension. :yup:
 

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I use my off hand to pull the gun into my shoulder, similar to how you are holding the sub gun in your avatar. I like to use the same grip on each rifle and tend to keep my elbow tucked as I did come from a target shooting background. It also works out to the same grip If I am prone or firing from a field expedient position. I find that what works in the real world is better for me than what wins 3 gun matches. It is also why I like 2 point slings, they serve 2 purposes for me, carry the rifle and use a hasty sling.
Agreed.

I use the same thumb-over-thumb grip, whether firing a revolver or a semi auto pistol. The ever-popular thumbs-forward grip would be ill-advised with the cylinder gap inherent with revolvers.

I use the same grip/stance whether I'm firing a rifle (of whatever type) or a shotgun.

I have no use for a grip/stance that will work with some long guns, but not with others. Or that will work from some positions, but not with others.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think it is easier to master one technique that works all the time, rather than several that you need to choose from, depending on the circumstances. Consistency is a virtue at times.

If it works for you, then more power to you. To each their own.
 
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I use my off hand to pull the gun into my shoulder, similar to how you are holding the sub gun in your avatar. I like to use the same grip on each rifle and tend to keep my elbow tucked as I did come from a target shooting background. It also works out to the same grip If I am prone or firing from a field expedient position. I find that what works in the real world is better for me than what wins 3 gun matches. It is also why I like 2 point slings, they serve 2 purposes for me, carry the rifle and use a hasty sling.
Me too. 3 gun stuff doesn't do it for me either. I keep my elbows tucked in. I don't shoot completely squared but also not all that bladed. I'll edit this with some pics of different rifles. I use what works when foot position isn't ideal, when I may need to support on cover, etc. I've found I can tuck my right arm in even tighter and more comfortably using the BCM Gunfighter grip over the A2, MOE or BG-17 that I used to use.

This is what works for me whether moving through a structure or shooting offhand at 100 meters. It's tight and stable but allows fast transitions from target to target. I've spent time shooting as DMR instructs and I truly appreciate it. I've found for me the choking back just a small amount with my support hand is more comfortable over a longer time of clearing a building or just an extended day of shooting.

As I've heard others describe it, you could basically put me in a fighting stance with my weight shifted forward over the balls of my feet then hand me a knife, handgun or rifle and the only thing that'll change is how far out each arm is reaching.

You'll see it varies a bit, but one constant is that my thumb is always in line with the bore. I've noticed this helps tame the muzzle flip whether with a rifle or a handgun. You'll see I do this with 10.5" through 16" 5.56 rifles, with the MP5 and with the 308 SCAR H.

This first pic is my normal grip and stance for all types of shooting. I'll admit, most of what I do is close range work out to maybe 200. This is what works FOR ME. I'll show others why if they ask and I've yet to see someone not be faster on a timer when they shoot like this or especially like DMR, but sometimes other things are just as important, like comfort over extended periods of time, unfortunately.

I lose very little breaking my elbow instead of locking it, but there is a difference on the timer, however small. The key for me is getting the stock more towards my center and the top of the stock at least a few inches below the top of my shoulder, not over it like many shooters used to do. My support hand pulls the rifle back so it's solid and I could remove my firing hand while the rifle stays in place. The support hand/arm does most of the work in moving the rifle as well as holding it in place.





This is the farthest I can get out on the 9" hand guard. It also has a handstop.



My 10.5". You can see through the holes in the top of the hand guard that my thumb is on top of the 9 o'clock rail.



SCAR H 308. My thumb is on top of the 9 o'clock rail



SCAR L 5.56



About as agressive as I currently get. This is shooting at 100 meters, 6" shoot-n-see's. I no longer use the tape switches.





Here's my handgun grip. I'm actually more aggressive now and torque my elbows out which forces my palms in. It doesn't look much different though other than the Glock 17 instead of a 1911 for the past three years...

 
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