What are your thoughts about Ruger?

When I can get a police trade-in Sig for $350, the Rugers are out - no contest.

When I can get trade in S&Ws with better ergonomics for $250-300, Rugers don\'t win there either.

In the new gun department, I can get BHP clones in the $200-250 range new that with the same amount of work it takes to get the $350ish new Rugers to run and feel good without patronizing the company that still hasn\'t renounced its past bad decisions.

I can see having a fondness for a firearm due to sentimental attachment to them. I have a few I shouldn\'t like but they\'re among my favorites to blow away an afternoon with.

But when push comes to shove, the price difference in Ruger\'s firearms versus other options just hurts - even the P345 that the mags were raving about was only a 50% improvement - it\'s still the same incredibly blocky Ruger slide and top-end ergonomics on an improved frame. With most of the new Ruger autos running $380ish to $450 depending on options, caliber, and finish, they\'re not in the same league as the basic Glock models available for the same price - or the pre-owned factory refurbed Sigs - or the Springfield XDs or the Springfield 1911s or....

When the chips have been down for me in the wild. my Sig may have been more expensive , but it worked 100% and got me home in one piece. The $100 or so I paid for mine over the available Ruger P89 at the time was a quickly forgotten Franklin.

It\'s so funny whenever this comes up.

The fact is I could purchase anything from a Bersa Thunder 380 to a Wilson Combat Handguns .45 and still be told what a piece of junk it is.

Rugers have bad ergonomics? Have you guys ever seen a Glock?

Not that it matters anyway. Add some aftermarket grips, problem solved.

The important thing is, it works, and it works for me, and it\'s taught me a lot about what I want when I buy another automatic pistol someday. Now will my next purchase probably be a Ruger? No, I\'ll want to try something different and see how that works. I\'ll probably also have a slightly larger budget.

But does that mean the one I have now is a POJ? Nope.

1000 rounds and no misfires yet. I\'m impressed. I think I\'ve just been incredibly lucky because all automatic pistols I\'ve ever handled are prone to occassional misfires.

Ruger is like Taurus. It\'s a brand that many people don\'t like for whatever reason; because it\'s different, because it\'s inexpensive, because it looks funny, etc.

But you know what? I\'m the owner and it\'s to my satisfaction. What exactly am I going to run out and buy for the same cash that\'s going to change my life forever?

Besides I don\'t know what you guys do for a living, but a new Ruger represents the top of my budget for the time being in a lot of categories. I also realize this still gives me lots of choices, but I refuse to cut myself off from an option even if it\'s not the option I go with.

Ruger does make some things I wouldn\'t really want... like I\'m not too crazy about the Mini-14. But that\'s any gun maker. They all make something of theirs I don\'t particularly care for.

All I know is I\'m a fan of the P Series, and that every gun I own has been called a piece of junk by somebody. My Smith, my Mossberg, my Marlin, and my Norinco have all been called cheap pot metal crap to my face and I like all of them anyway.

I own many, many guns from manufacturers that are maligned - from a Century-built FAL that\'s been flawless for years and years, to Norinco commercial Tokarevs that were my go-to gun when I couldn\'t afford any better, etc. I don\'t like Glocks myself, given the fact that my hands are substantially larger than normal and the newer finger grooved models act as pain increasers not grip enhancers.

In the ergonomic realm, I don\'t see a whole lot of difference between the average slide-heavy, slide-overwide Ruger auto and a Hi-Point. Both are cheap American guns that aren\'t generally suitable for concealed carry, both typically work and have detractors a mile wide, but one will let you buy a few cases of ammo to practice on with without supporting Bill Ruger\'s heirs who haven\'t distanced themselves from his statements.

And yes, you\'ll find someone to knock your choice in most cases.

I won\'t be one in most - but Ruger\'s shameless sellout of the American gun owner in 1989 and again in 94 and again in 04 when they didn\'t bring back hi-cap mags etc. tells me I won\'t be burned again.

I\'ve sworn off even the used ones as the luck I\'ve had with the wheelguns matches my disgust for the company\'s policy.

As you can see from a sampling of what\'s in one of my several safes, I\'m not afraid of cheap guns. I\'m not afraid of what Combat Handguns is going to like. I\'m not afraid to have cheap range toys or ones with bulky ergonomics - but there is a substantial difference between recommending Ruger as a practical pistol or a range toy versus a combat-ready weapon. I own only a few in the latter category, and Ruger won\'t ever be among those.

And this is where we hit the meat of the issue.

If you are so disgusted by Ruger, why buy a Smith? What they did was worse.

Or for that matter why buy any foreign made handgun? You\'re putting Americans out of business.

The logic is well intentioned but flawed, and the gesture is epic in the eyes of he who commits it but is ultimately meaningless.

By anyone else\'s definition nothing I own is a \"combat ready\" weapon. By my own definition nothing exists that\'s a \"combat ready\" weapon. No matter what I acquire, there will always be something much nicer. If I were Bill Gates I might have a chance at finding the best pistol in the world, but I\'m not so I\'ll concentrate on what\'s realistic.

Anyone who claims the slide on a Ruger is so heavy... have you actually handled one? I\'ll admit it has a curious slightly top heavy heft to it, but it\'s like the difference between a Mossberg 500 and a Remington 870 in the hand; the Remington feels \"Wrong\" to me. It\'s a big difference to someone who is used to one or the other but fundamentally the same thing. Besides, stick in a full magazine and suddenly it\'s not top heavy any more. The Hogue grips help solve this problem too because they do weigh more than the factory grips even if it\'s just an ounce or two, but that\'s all it takes to distribute the weight out.

No, it works and works well enough for my purposes. It shoots straight, it is as reliable as anything else, and other than the magazine not catching if you don\'t load it just so (of course in a real situation I\'d slam load it anyway) there\'s nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

Given the choice between a machete and a Hi Point I might very well take the machete. Given a choice between a machete and a Ruger I will take the Ruger.

And besides, if it\'s so terrible as everyone says, don\'t you think I\'ll figure it out eventually?

Edit: Drool... nice pics! I hope to amass a mighty pile like that some day.

I\'m not pleased with Smith\'s actions. I\'ve never bought a new one. My disgust for them isn\'t as high as it is with Bill Ruger for starting this whole mess off in regards to magazine bans.

Foreign made guns I don\'t have a problem with - never have. If American workers and design are to be competitive outside of a closed market, they need to operate in a broader market. When there\'s been an American product that suits my needs I buy it. When there\'s not, my money still goes to an American gun store, an American gun distributor, an American shipping company, to the American importer of the weapon, etc. What I am against is American protectionism disguised as something else - which brings us back to Bill Ruger.

Bill Ruger supported a magazine ban, not because it was good for the shooters who bought his products or for the marketplace - but to compete against Glock and Sig and ensure that his product was legislatively better rather than qualitatively better. It\'s the same thing the NRA did to gun owners in 1968 when they went along with the Gun Control Act, created the modern dealer (which solidified the control that manufacturers had over another level of distribution), and cut out the foreign competition that was in many ways rightfully kicking their butts at the time.

As far as finding the \'nicest'handgun, I spent several years and went through about a hundred only to return to the first I felt really at home with. I ended up keeping many of them because they were still entertaining, had a home in my collection, et cetera.

And yes, I\'ve handled every Ruger generation of centerfire auto made. The P85 is the best of the bunch, with decreasing ergonomics with each passing generation. The \'10mm FBI'failure passed on to Ruger\'s consumers begins the clunk full-time and they just don\'t seem to have gotten over it. It\'s not the Mossberg/Remington difference in shotguns IME - it\'s the Browning Hi-Power or Sig or S&W 59/69 series versus the Hi-Point and Rugers of the world. I see and handle the Rugers regularly - I\'ve shot every example of the P series made at one point or another I believe for the same reason I revisit Glock every now and again to see if my tastes have changed.

And I\'m not worried about whether you figure it out. You have the right to carry a rock if you want. Truthfully, I could care less if you decided to buy nothing but a brace of P94 DAOs. If you can shoot well with them, that should end it for you.

In this thread, you went defensive quickly, because your personal choice was attacked. Nobody was doing that - they were expressing discontent with the company, its policies, and their experience with its products. The first two aren\'t as subjective as the latter. Had you not fallen into the usual trap of \"attack the higher priced guns\", I\'d probably have let it slide myself.

Wherein have I ever said I think the Ruger is as good as the better products on the market? I did say I think Glocks have terrible ergonomics.

To be honest, I feel value wise, there is a \"sweet spot\" on the firearms market for every buyer, subjective to one\'s own tastes and needs. I favor anything I can get for $400 or less. $500 is about as much as I\'m willing to go. The reason why is that I have discovered that for every dollar I spend on the gun, I spend that amount again on accessories. For me, the best value is a new Taurus revolver or a used S&W revolver, or a military surplus rifle of some sort.

Now are these the best guns out there? I hope not. I\'ll be in a better position some day and I want there to be some better products for me to consider. I do have plans to one day get a real rifle, a nice Marlin, Remington, Weatherby... something in that vein. That won\'t be cheap.

But are they necessarily the best value? I think not. Sure these products perform better, but the more you pay, the slighter the difference becomes.

I\'m the same way with pocket knives. $100 is as far as I\'m willing to go because I realize a high performance knife costs money. I realize my $100 knives aren\'t as good as a Strider or a CRK offering, but they cut and they cut well. I can and do depend on them.

There are guns that are cheap. For instance Hi Point or Jennings. Then there are guns that are inexpensive, like a Bersa or a Makarov or a Ruger.

The fact is, my life actually does not revolve around guns. I just feel very strongly about my rights and my personal safety. I am extremely interested in learning things like point shooting or \'slicing the pie\'. I think it\'s important to take some time to learn how to shoot. But I am not going to spend my existence consumed with being prepared. There are many things I love more than guns.

Besides, I don\'t think it\'s fair that only the haters should have their opinions noted. Why is it that when somebody says something positive about something, they\'re always treated like they did something wrong?

Tim Leatherman said he was going to vote for Kerry and people reacted by boycotting him. I\'m sorry but he\'s still going to vote for Kerry. Even if you think that\'s wrong, he has the right to do that. Kerry still lost anyway. Boycotts are ridiculous. Not buying a firearm you might enjoy just because you disagree with the company\'s political manueverings is ultimately only penalizing yourself.

I for instance oppose gun control with a passion. What if one of my student\'s parents who was a big time gun control supporter found out about this and went to the school board demanding I be fired or receive a pay cut for my political ideas? That would be ridiculous.

It\'s all a bit silly really anyway. Here we are nitpicking each other when there\'s real idiots running around claiming all guns are evil horrible devil wands. It\'s our Byzantine, liability happy society that\'s really at work here. Gun makers are going to face more and more \"make legal concessions or die\" decisions that aren\'t going to be popular. I don\'t like these decisions either, but the forces that push the gun companies to them are bigger than the gun makers.

How many gun control groups attack the makers and dealers? Too many. A company is in business for the purpose of making money, and getting your pants sued off or paying tons of legal fees for a legal battle no individual company can win is not conducive to profit.

Yes the things the man supported were wrong. But the fact is he\'s but a product of a large movement that threatens to destroy all we hold dear. If Ruger or Smith and Wesson hadn\'t made these concessions, someone else would have.

The gun makers aren\'t going to save our rights for us. We can\'t depend on for profit companies to perform acts of charity by helping us in our fight.

You boycott Smith and Wesson, well that\'s one more American who makes their living in the firearms industry we\'re losing.

On top of that I plan to buy a revolver for my first dedicated carry piece anyway so the whole point is kind of moot I suppose.

So let me be clear here. Correct me please if I am wrong because I do hate to be wrong.

Bill Ruger supports AWB. Wrong yes. His right? Unfortunately.

AWB sunsets. Bill Ruger\'s actions have been corrected.

Do I understand the situation correctly? If not then disregard the rest and please correct me.

So now you propose we boycott Ruger for not making something?

They\'re already hurting themselves. That $85 I threw down for normal capacity Mec Gar brand magazines would have been theirs if they made them.

A boycott is hardly necessary if that\'s what we\'re upset about. If the company doesn\'t make a legal accessory you feel you have a right to, then they have already penalized themselves for you!

You might as well get mad at Michelin or Ford for not making normal capacity magazines. Boycott Ford! Boycott Michelin! They don\'t make normal capacity magazines!

Oh wait... Ford, Michelin, Ruger... those companies don\'t make normal capacity magazines. They already choose to lose money.

Is it just me or does it seem like Ruger is therefore already getting its just desserts in the form of losing business from people like me who actually own a Ruger but don\'t buy factory accessories because they are not available?

It just seems like to me we can all lean back and feel smug anyway. I mean honestly, do they really expect their company to remain strong if people like me who get a Ruger as a gift don\'t give them any money to accessorize it?

True they made the money selling the pistol to the person who bought it, but it seems to me like their own decision has come back on them.

I own an SKS. It doesn\'t mean I support Communism. Buying a Ruger doesn\'t mean you support Bill Ruger\'s outlook.

This is the same kind of thinking that led people to boycott Heinz Ketchup. I\'m sorry but you are not hurting gun control laws by not buying a particular brand of ketchup.

The bans the man supported would have just come about as the result of someone else\'s handiwork. Who knows, maybe he saved us from something even worse by offering those concessions.

I\'m not going to defend what he did, I\'m just saying let\'s not miss the forest for the trees here. Our battle is bigger than Bill Ruger\'s wrongdoings.

If someone is in the industry, in the loop and they produce and sell firearms to freedom loving Americans, then it is the ultimate in betrayal to suddenly jump ship and sell out all those who supported your business and aid those who would seek to disarm us. Instead of standing shoulder to shoulder and helping to protect a God given right that many many men have died to preserve some decided to cut and run and make deals with the enemy. I have no regard for Ruger at all and I will never ever own one used or new.

As for S&W even though they were under the ownership of the Brits when they fell on their sword I will never ever own one again. Many other weapon makers in other countries did not see fit to toss their hat into the ring and as a result retained and recieved my respect. I donot forgive those who aid our enemies even if it was "misguided". The fact they took the steps to ban, withhold or steal away our rights is enough for me.

It is a free nation (Thank God) and if you wish to buy thier products then by all means please do. But, in my humble opine you place the rope around your neck and that of your fellows when you pay hard earned money for their product. Those of you who say that "who are you to say Rugers views are wrong?" If not you, if not us? then who will? Just because they are in the business and not some shrill, crackpot Anti-gun org or some lacky politico that speaks in their behalf it does not shield them from what was done. A simple "I'm sorry" does not work here. Trust is earned and should not be given back with to much ease. But, as I said it's my humble Opine.

Have a good day, Stay safe folks.

Partisan Ranger :comeandge

F350 said:

What happened with S&W was done by the lime sucking bastards that owned them at the time; S&W has since been bought by an AMERICAN company that has renounced all the deals with the federal commissars. Ruger on the other hand is still run by the back stabbing SOBs who did the dirty deed, Billy jr. was with the company at the time and has done nothing to change things.

Click to expand...

I have been away form this forum for a few days and am just catching up. Thank you for the S&W comment. My first gun was a S&W revolver that I was issued by my department in 1970 when I became a cop. I bought some S&Ws then stopped when they were sold to the British. I read the apology and was satisfied enough to buy about a half dozen S&Ws in the past year. I am going to call Midway today or tomorrow to place an order for a Uberti pistol. From what I understand Ruger makes excellent black powder pistols. But Uberti costs a lot less and from what I have read they were chosen by colt to manufacture their black powder reproductions.

PS it was never an issue as to how reliable the ruger is. After all this is a black powder revolver that is not going to be used as a carry weapon. If I was looking for a reliable carry weapon I would not even think about black powder.