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Being a shotgun fan I feel it’s gimmicky. If one wishes to reduce penetration it’s just as easy to drop down in shot size therefore mass. If 00 gives more penetration then you desire drop to #1 Buck if that gives to much penetration and you desire something for indoors and close range only drop to #4 Buck. I prefer 00 and at the ranges a shotgun is typically used it will give desired penetration levels with flite control wads it will extend that range while still having the pellet mass to penetrate. Even at 10ft it’s only giving something like 17” in Gel which means it should be at or under the desired threshold maximum of 18” penetration. Which isn’t a failure limit simply a desired range.
 

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Actually it is weight of each pellet. Pellets of equal size and shape, the heavier one will generally penetrate deeper.
i was talking about cross sectional tissue damage, not penetration. and iirc, the tests i saw led me to believe that penetration for that shell wasn't a problem
 

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i was talking about cross sectional tissue damage, not penetration. and iirc, the tests i saw led me to believe that penetration for that shell wasn't a problem
Without adequate penetration a large surface wound will hurt but may not stop an attacker. This load will probably work fine, but I will stick with what has worked historically.
 

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Without adequate penetration a large surface wound will hurt but may not stop an attacker. This load will probably work fine, but I will stick with what has worked historically.
i understand that. we're arguing different aspects
 

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i'm talking about surface area crushed. you're talking about penetration. i think we're both right. let's just let it go
 

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I have seen the wounds with surface area crushed, they hurt but were not out of the fight.
 

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This is 00 buck. If you want less penetration, just go with #1 or #4 buck. If you want more, go with a slug. I see no value in 00 buckshot that immediately turns into #4 buckshot when it hits the target. If I wanted my target to get hit with #4 buckshot, Id just load my gun with that. Not sure what the point of this round is.
 

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interesting. Federal makes what i think is the best self defense shotgun shell out there. i can get the designation if ya care. it's a #1 buck, 15 pellets, with FlightWad. tests have shown greater tissue destruction by 15 smaller pellets than 9 larger ones. i would guess these 9 breaking in half would be even better. but from the pics of this guy shooting, it appears to me that the flightwad keeps the grouping a heck of a lot tighter. at 7 yards, my targets look like one really large round hit them, instead of a pattern of smaller hits spread around. i'll try and get some of these new shells and compare the two
I would love to find some. I checked with Federal about a year ago about #1 buck w/flite control wad and they said they no longer make it.

__

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
 

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the most extensive gel testing i know of on shotshells.........from birdshot to slugs....


me?.....first three rounds are 00 loads...the last two are slugs....

relative to my location.....overpenetration is not so much a consideration nor is keeping every pellet on target......odds are it will be a moving threat so regardless of the technology of super science shells, its going to be a crap-shoot with the human factor to center a pattern in a hurry and keep every pellet center mass as distance increases with a moving threat...more so in low light.......

which is why i chose the shotgun.....so i do not have to be pin-point precise. i expect a few pellets to stray within reason.

i want mass to get penetration whether its close across the room or further across the back yard.....

if my location changes and gets more crowded.....i'll drop down in size to 4 buck or smaller. Not out of over-penetration/pass thru concerns, but out of penetration concerns for the stray pellets.
 

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in my defense, allow me to quote from the above-mentioned study. this is discussing the Remington #1 buck. the Federal has 15 pellets of the same size:

"A 2¾ inch load firing 16 .30 cal pellets, this offering from Remington fired from an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum exhibited excellent average penetration of approximately 16.5 inches. Temporary stretch cavity measured approximately 8.5 inches. Shot recovered exhibited minimal deformation.

In our opinion, this load is superior to 00 buck for selection as a tactical shotgun load. While exhibiting slightly less penetration, overall penetration is still acceptable and if all pellets strike their intended target there is potential to create approximately 77% more wound tract with the additional 7 pellets."

bolding is mine. this is what i was trying to say earlier, but i guess i worded my remarks poorly

also, from the same above study:

"We do believe federal’s wad configuration is superior to most others, and as a result most of their buckshot loads tend to pattern tighter than those of their competition."

these are the two reasons that i decided to go with the Federal #1 buck with the FlightWad. if they've stopped making it, well, i think that's too bad. i've got about 30-35 shells left. i'll bogart 'em. and start looking for something new
 

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I think any sized buckshot (#4, #1, etc) will take care of business. It's more of a matter of personal preference. I like Federal 00 Buck with reduced recoil Flite Control wad because:
1. 00 Buck of any sort (in usual times) is more readily available. Believe it or not, my LGS has the Federal in stock (at $3 a pop!). The more shells you can purchase in good times and bad, the more you can train.
2. Pattern doesn't mean much at in-house self defense distances. Just like handguns, you have to aim. Unless you live in a mansion, most patterns won't be bigger than a 16" softball. The Federal with Flite Control throws a pattern the size of a fist at 25 feet. Similar devastation as a rifled slug with a lot less recoil.
 

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i don't have a problem with over-thinking it; it's my personal defense we're talking about.

agree with the idea that any buckshot size will work, but if one is a little bit better than the others, why wouldn't you go with that? i didn't like the #4 buck because the penetration wasn't deep enough for me. and as the study states, #1 buck crushes more tissue than 00. 70% more lung tissue, liver tissue, heart tissue. why not go with the one that does more damage?

and there doesn't seem to be much concern about the flight wad concept. it may not apply to you; i'm cool with that. but, at longer distances, some of the pellets from a shell without it could miss wide of the target, even if your aim is pretty good. if it's not, the wider pattern becomes even more of a problem.

okay, i'll stop. i'm not trying to change anybody's mind, i'm just trying to explain why i came to the decision i did. but i think it's worth over-thinking this just as much as over-thinking the personal defense round you have in your gun. just my $0.02. thanks for listening
 

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My home defense is mostly from coyotes and racoons. I have shot alot of them with #4 buck at 1200 fps. The larger pattern makes for more consistent hits and all that have been hit well have stopped doing what got them shot! I have not had any problems with pellots not penitrating. Those pellots that strike bone break those bones.
In the 80's or early 90's the Leos tested a lot of Buck shot rounds. They determined that #4 buck was lethal. The only reason they went with 00 buck was when they added the Intermediate Barrier penitration test!
Personaly if I wanted a tight group I would be using a rifle! #4 buck gives a nice round 28" pattern at 35 yards. That is about the distance my porch lights will illuminate. I have no doubt a 2 leggid varmint would react any differently if hit with a load of 20 cal pellots!
One thing I will add about the Op's load of fragmenting pellots is, if they seperate before striking the target the odd shapes will create fliers! When you load buck shot the loader is very careful not to dent or deform the shot or you will get odd and unpredictable patterns. Thats why buck shot is also buffered. It helps keep the shot from deforming when fired.
DR
 

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I'm still a fan of the old "buck and ball" loads. 1 .60 caliber soft lead ball followed by 6 00 buck pellets. The ball tends to hit low at 10 yrds with the 00 hitting about 6" to 8" higher.
 
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