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Discussion Starter #1
You're walking through a parking lot and come upon a man beating a frail, elderly woman. He has no obvious weapon, but is clearly capable of inflicting serious injury or death upon the woman. No one else is around.

You have a CWP, a pistol on your hip, and a cellphone in your pocket.

What do you do?:confused:
 

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I'd draw, clearly and assertively yell "Stop or I'll shoot" and see where it goes from there. I would not give him much time to comply. In other situations you may have to wonder if the now victim actually started it, or weither the aggressor is an UC cop, but being an elderly woman i think it's pretty clear what is going on.

"Stop or I'll shoot", then he has about 1 second to get off of her and to the ground. 1 more punch and i fire.

edit: of course after stopping the threat i would be on the phone w/ 911
 

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Discussion Starter #3
"In other situations you may have to wonder if the now victim actually started it, "

Whether she started it or not is irrelevent. She is in danger now and you can stop it. I agree with your answer about 95%.

With no weapon visible, I'd warn him first (with weapon in hand) but unload if he reached inside a jacket or charged me. Yeah, some might say he's off-duty cop reaching for a badge, but unlikely. I don't think he'd be beating up a woman to start with, and if he was, he's just another bad apple.

And, of course, I'd be calling 911 as soon as possible.
 

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Call 911 Be a good witness.

I try to stay out of other peoples business. Unfortunatly, personal protection is a responsibility of each individiual citizen. I have no responsibility to a third party stranger.

If I choose to make it my business there are many other factors that I need to consider and unfortunatly many people don't.

For Example do you actually know whats going on. While the typical perception is, that the women is a victim, do you know that with 1000% certainty. The answer is NO in the case you provided.

Use of lethal force:
Ability, Oppurtunity, Jeopardy and Preclusion.

Ability does this man have the ability to hurt me
Oppurtunit does this man have the oppurtunity to hurt me
Jeopardy am I in jeopardy
Preclusion-if I use deadly force to protect a third party what happens to me.

After a gentleman saved a cop from getting beaten to death he is now being sued by the family.

http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html
 

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I agree that even if the victim is now the aggressor you can still stop the threat. What I meant was that maybe the CWP holder only sees 1 or two hits from the "agressor" this could very easily be the original victim that has managed to gain the upper hand in the situation. In the case of it being an old lady being beaten, I am going to be much less likely to give this guy a chance to say he was "stopping a threat" himself.

does that make any sense?
 

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Call 911 Be a good witness.

I try to stay out of other peoples business. Unfortunatly, personal protection is a responsibility of each individiual citizen. I have no responsibility to a third party stranger.
I have no responsibility to a third party stranger, but as my instructor put it "its up to every sheepdog to choose who is in his flock". Atleast in Ohio deadly force is a legal way to protect a strange who's life is in danger.

I would choose the size of my flock based off every individual situation, but seeing an elderly woman being clearly beaten... I'm including her in my flock.
 

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I agree that even if the victim is now the aggressor you can still stop the threat. What I meant was that maybe the CWP holder only sees 1 or two hits from the "agressor" this could very easily be the original victim that has managed to gain the upper hand in the situation. In the case of it being an old lady being beaten, I am going to be much less likely to give this guy a chance to say he was "stopping a threat" himself.

does that make any sense?

You do realize that pulling a gun on somebody, generally by act alone constitutes deadly force?
Do you know your states force continum laws?
Are you a police officer?
Do you hold arresting authority in your state?
Unfortunatly using the Phrase "I was trying to do the right thing!" gernally doesn't hold up in court. Expecially if you pull a gun and violate anothers rights.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The woman is in danger (whether it's her fault or not) and you're going to stand by? Sounds like a New Yorker's excuse when seeing a pimp kill his hooker.
In Florida you canuse you concealed weapon to intervene in third party threats. That prevents the "glad-it's-not-me" syndrome.
 

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I am not a LEO, I do not have arrest powers. The aggressor is beating an elderly woman, this is deadly force. I will recipricate with deadly force.
 

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I generally agree with bfunk.
I usually operate under the "drop back, call and be a good witness" mindset, but at face value, the elderly woman in my mind likely did nothing to precipitate a brutal attack, and given the disparity of force I would likely intervene directly.
That's just me though.
 

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Under this specific scenario I would come to assist as to separate the two.

Why?

Only (!) because of the disparity in force issue as related to age, stature, and strength as well as ability for either combatant to defend them self.

If I saw two persons of seemingly equal stature going at it though I would not do anything but maybe dial 911 and be a good witness, maybe.

I would not draw on either person at first.
If the primary combatant though did refuse to yield or turned his attack toward me then he would get a face full of OC/CS which I normally carry.

My side arm is for dire emergency use only.
A fight in the street is not a dire emergency, in my book.

- Janq
 

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I have no responsibility to a third party stranger, but as my instructor put it "its up to every sheepdog to choose who is in his flock". Atleast in Ohio deadly force is a legal way to protect a strange who's life is in danger.

I would choose the size of my flock based off every individual situation, but seeing an elderly woman being clearly beaten... I'm including her in my flock.
I've read all of Col Grossman stuff as well. However, we live in the real world of Liability of our own actions.

What you have to realize is that just because something is legal doesn't mean there are not consequences. You may feel that you have a higher obligation to protect your fellow man; however, in reality you have ZERO obligation to protect a third pary. Yes it maybe legal, however, there may also be HUGE consequence even if you are slightly wrong.

Carrying a gun doesn't grant you special powers. Instead of getting involvded in problems, it should actually make you avoid problems.
 

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I knew I should have waited to post. Janq summed up my response better than I did!
 

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I've read all of Col Grossman stuff as well. However, we live in the real world of Liability of our own actions.

What you have to realize is that just because something is legal doesn't mean there are not consequences. You may feel that you have a higher obligation to protect your fellow man; however, in reality you have ZERO obligation to protect a third pary. Yes it maybe legal, however, there may also be HUGE consequence even if you are slightly wrong.

Carrying a gun doesn't grant you special powers. Instead of getting involvded in problems, it should actually make you avoid problems.
My gun is of secondary consideration in this instance. I would intervene in this case even if un-armed.
I would present my weapon only if/when I need to escalate. But then again, I'm a trained combatant of considerable phtsical stature.
 

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I realize there could and probably would be consequences, and like Janq said, if it were two men of seemingly equal ability i'd be less likely to intervene. But i would sleep better in jail or having been sued knowing that i saved an elderly womans life than I would at home in my own bed thinking of how I watched her be beaten to death.
 

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I am not a LEO, I do not have arrest powers. The aggressor is beating an elderly woman, this is deadly force. I will recipricate with deadly force.
Just so you realize you are not obligated to use deadly force against a third party, and in most states, if you take anothers life, you face arrest, arraingment, possible civil suits, lawyer fees, at family re unions you will always generally be known as "the guy that shot that other guy".

I'm not by any means saying that what your saying its not morally right what you have done; however, you do have to realize the possible consequences for you proposed actions. Just remember morals don't hold up in court either generally.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Florida allows deadly force to prevent life threatening sceneios (including rape, which isn't necessarily "life-threatening") on third parties.
While I realize each person must make a decision based on individual response, to arbitraily state that it's not "my" responsibility to potect others just seems self-centered. Am I going to take on a gang of 10 armed thugs? Nope. Bad odds. But am I going to let someone beat an old lady to death, even if she did wack him with her purse for taking her parking spot? No way.
I'm with you, Bfunk. The world needs more Sheepdogs.
Not a LEO. and arresting him is NOT my concern, even if only a "Citizen's arrest." Arresting him is the LEO's job. Hopefully I got some good pics of him to help out!
 

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I realize there could and probably would be consequences, and like Janq said, if it were two men of seemingly equal ability i'd be less likely to intervene. But i would sleep better in jail or having been sued knowing that i saved an elderly womans life than I would at home in my own bed thinking of how I watched her be beaten to death.
Ditto
 

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Just so you realize you are not obligated to use deadly force against a third party, and in most states, if you take anothers life, you face arrest, arraingment, possible civil suits, lawyer fees, at family re unions you will always generally be known as "the guy that shot that other guy".

I'm not by any means saying that what your saying its not morally right what you have done; however, you do have to realize the possible consequences for you proposed actions. Just remember morals don't hold up in court either generally.
The law does not obligate me to save an elderly womans life, my morals do. I'd be proud to be known at a family reunion as "the guy who saved an old woman from being beaten to death in a parking lot while others just watch to avoid possible lawsuits"
 

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If this was me walking up and seeing what is posted by the OP I would most likely run up to the weak side of the attacker and snap some ribs with a front kick to get him off of the old lady.

Why would I do this as opposed to drawing and instructing him to get off Grandma?

Most likely my training and muscle memory. I have had my feet and hands for self defense much longer than I have had my gun.

Would it be the smartest thing for me to do, probably not.
 
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