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Felons do intentionally attack police. Brown attacked Wilson. Most seek a vulnerable victim.
From my reading of the circumstances involved in that incident, it was not a case of a criminal just coming up to a police officer and deciding to take his gun away from him, but a situation where conflict had already been generated by the officer attempting to arrest / detain him and it escalated. You also cannot compare what happens in the outside world with what happens in prison. In the outside world, they have an incentive to not get caught (or shot), whereas in prison, they might figure that they have nothing to lose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
How can something blend into the background if it is already really concealed? One other thought to ponder, if someone is going out of their way to try to camouflage concealed carry (that you've established a trained eye would notice), wouldn't the camouflage itself be a tip-off as well? For example, wearing a loose, long tail, plaid shirt untucked? You also established that the way a person walks can be a tip. How do you camouflage that - use a walking cane? I'm not being trite, I'm wanting to know where you are coming from. This might be a good discussion if there were more specifics.
Camouflage is a way to conceal. It is not a fashionable pattern. It is not even necessarily a ghillie suit.
If I knew all the ways, I would not ask. I am not a perfectionist or know-it-all. Your question is not trite.
I may not be asking the question with the best of framing.

The way to lessen the tipoff in the walk is to more evenly distribute the weight by putting weapons and, in my case, speedloaders on opposite sides. It creates fewer of what card sharks would call "tells."

Your suggestion of a walking cane is workable for a 70 year old like me. It would put an alternative less lethal weapon in my hand. I was taught how to use a baton in my career.

It is a good discussion as long as you do not run out of ideas or reveal flaws in them.
 

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I've worn loose long tailed plaid shirts for years in the fall and winter, regardless of whether I was concealing something or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
From my reading of the circumstances involved in that incident, it was not a case of a criminal just coming up to a police officer and deciding to take his gun away from him, but a situation where conflict had already been generated by the officer attempting to arrest / detain him and it escalated. You also cannot compare what happens in the outside world with what happens in prison. In the outside world, they have an incentive to not get caught (or shot), whereas in prison, they might figure that they have nothing to lose.
First, Brown slapped Wilson inside his car through the window. It was not an attempt to arrest from inside the patrol car. Two shots were from inside the car. One hit the door and one hit Brown. Wilson chased Brown over 153 feet from the car firing 14 shots from his .40 S&W. I read the descriptions and reviewed the pictures of the scene. The only damage to Wilson was a bitch slapped face.

Second, convicts do not change their way of thinking, bars or no bars. Criminal thinking errors do not stop when they pass through a sally port; either way. No one can predict who assumes they have nothing to lose or what will deter them. You may want to think prison will "reform" or "rehabilitate" or "deter" or "punish" them. No one can make that click of change happen but THEM.

I worked in community corrections for eight years before I worked in a prison. When I was a residential supervisor in a work release program, I read presentence reports in 1000s of files. When I assisted the hearings officer in prison, I did the same. Interviews from their first adjudication several times before their first incarceration did not demonstrate any change.

Inmates who are on parole for a life sentence have nothing to lose. If you are catching a burglar in your home with a long previous record, they may be looking at 20 years without parole. In prison you have have plenty to lose. Delayed parole, six month in Disciplinary Segregation. New charges. AND loss of face with other inmates. Just being moved from one cell to another can lead to a battle. Imagine knowing you may go back to prison.

SO, ABSOLUTELY I can compare what a criminal does in the outside world with what they do while incarcerated. YOU cannot compare YOUR worldview as a law-abiding citizens with theirs regarding their motivation or incentive.
Catching criminals does not necessarily mean you have any real contact with them. Arresting street officers do not normally have coffee with them in an interview room.
 
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Camouflage is a way to conceal. It is not a fashionable pattern. It is not even necessarily a ghillie suit.
Fashionable ghillie suit? LOL... OK, I was tempted, so I did a web search...


Cdg_MSS19_2


Answering a question that no one has asked EVER... :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #66 · (Edited)
First, Brown slapped Wilson inside his car through the window. It was not an attempt to arrest from inside the patrol car. Two shots were from inside the car. One hit the door and one hit Brown. Wilson chased Brown over 153 feet from the car firing 14 shots from his .40 S&W. I read the descriptions and reviewed the pictures of the scene. The only damage to Wilson was a bitch slapped face.

Second, convicts do not change their way of thinking, bars or no bars. Criminal thinking errors do not stop when they pass through a sally port; either way. No one can predict who assumes they have nothing to lose or what will deter them. You may want to think prison will "reform" or "rehabilitate" or "deter" or "punish" them. No one can make that click of change happen but THEM. Read the works of Dr. Samenow from decades ago. I only met him once, but it changed my views and practices in community corrections.

I worked in community corrections for eight years before I worked in a prison. When I was a residential supervisor in a work release program, I read presentence reports in 1000s of files.

When I assisted the hearings officer in prison, I did the same. Interviews from their first adjudications several times before their first incarceration did not demonstrate any change.

Inmates who are on parole for a life sentence have nothing to lose. If you are catching a burglar in your home with a long previous record, they may be looking at 20 years without parole. In prison you have have plenty to lose. Delayed parole, six month in Disciplinary Segregation. New charges. AND loss of face with other inmates. Just being moved from one cell to another can lead to a battle. Imagine knowing you may go back to prison.

SO, ABSOLUTELY I can compare what a criminal does in the outside world with what they do while incarcerated. YOU cannot compare YOUR worldview as a law-abiding citizens with theirs regarding their motivation or incentive. If you did not think as a law-abiding responsible person, you would be in the criminal justice system yourself. Catching criminals does not necessarily mean you have any real contact with them. Arresting street officers do not normally have coffee with them in an interview room. It is just not their job. It is a job for detectives and parole/probation officers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
Fashionable ghillie suit? LOL... OK, I was tempted, so I did a web search...


Cdg_MSS19_2


Answering a question that no one has asked EVER... :)
You are at least thinking outside the box. And THAT is what I am asking for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
I've worn loose long tailed plaid shirts for years in the fall and winter, regardless of whether I was concealing something or not.
Concealment and camo are not equivalent terms anymore than concealment and COVER are to be equated, for this discussion.

I wear shorts, socks, and sandals 365. The suits and ties are not worn shopping by me. As I type this I am wearing a pull-over hoody with big pockets and cargo shorts with sidearms in Sticky Holsters in the pockets in the front and speedloaders in the back. I do testing of options all the time. If you can sleep with it on, you will be willing to wear it while jogging.

What would camouflage an unconcealed weapon. One example mentioned was a phone case built for that purpose. I do not mean putting a "HELLO KITTY" sticker on a S&W 44 magnum N frame using the "Mexican Holster," but obviously the idea had to be entertained for creative purposes.

That one is definitely "outside the box." I started with an AR15 disguised as an Obama stickered guitar on one end and a baby bottle on the other end. It was outside the box humor intended to spark imagination. There are enough creative minds here to come up with serious new ideas.
 

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First, Brown slapped Wilson inside his car through the window. It was not an attempt to arrest from inside the patrol car. Two shots were from inside the car. One hit the door and one hit Brown. Wilson chased Brown over 153 feet from the car firing 14 shots from his .40 S&W. I read the descriptions and reviewed the pictures of the scene. The only damage to Wilson was a bitch slapped face.
Is this the incident you are talking about?

If so, then I still stand by my statement... They did not go out and intentionally search for an officer in order to attack him and take his gun... Other things happened first and it escalated... I don't have a lot of experience in this, but during my life, I've been unarmed and shot and I've had a situation where I was armed and not shot. In the first case, I was young and naive (before I was in the Navy). In the latter case (maybe 15-20 years ago), two individuals were headed towards me and my wife as we were going to our car in a mostly empty parking lot at night, but when they saw me put my hand in fanny pack, letting it linger there while I looked directly at them to let them know that I was completely aware of their presence, immediately turned and went a different way. This was quite a few years ago and although the fanny pack that I wore was not the typical black leather CHL one that people used back then, there was room for my compact carry handgun, plus I kept my wallet, checkbook, and keys there. My keys were in the same compartment as the handgun. If you look like a victim, you will become a victim -- be aware of you surroundings...
 
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You are at least thinking outside the box. And THAT is what I am asking for.
Well, I would have to say that the "fashionable ghillie suit" in the above photo would definitely hide any printing of a handgun that was being carried concealed... LOL...

I'm thinking there might be some entanglement hazards though, so a handgun with an exposed hammer might not be a good idea...

Just when we thought that leisure suits, paisley nehru jackets, and platform shoes were the worst fashion styles for men that could ever be invented, some poofter designer comes up with something like the "fashionable ghillie suit"... BLECH!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
Is this the incident you are talking about?

If so, then I still stand by my statement... They did not go out and intentionally search for an officer in order to attack him and take his gun... Other things happened first and it escalated... I don't have a lot of experience in this, but during my life, I've been unarmed and shot and I've had a situation where I was armed and not shot. In the first case, I was young and naive (before I was in the Navy). In the latter case (maybe 15-20 years ago), two individuals were headed towards me and my wife as we were going to our car in a mostly empty parking lot at night, but when they saw me put my hand in fanny pack, letting it linger there while I looked directly at them to let them know that I was completely aware of their presence, immediately turned and went a different way. This was quite a few years ago and although the fanny pack that I wore was not the typical black leather CHL one that people used back then, there was room for my compact carry handgun, plus I kept my wallet, checkbook, and keys there. My keys were in the same compartment as the handgun. If you look like a victim, you will become a victim -- be aware of you surroundings...
So, you assume CNN is the truth rather than the data provided in trial.

363538



 

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So, you assume CNN is the truth rather than the data provided in trial.
And you assume that the leftist NY Times is a better news source than the leftist CNN? LMAO... There's threes sides to every story -- his side, their side, and the truth... They usually don't coincide... The link you provided requires a paid subscription to the NY Times, so I could not read it, but I have no reason to believe that the TRUTH is somewhere between the claims of the criminals and the claims of the police / government.

Besides, if open carry was not a deterrent, why would police and security guards do it? It's a "show of force" to deter someone from doing something stupid (at least while they are around). It might not deter all of the criminals, but it deters most of them, otherwise we would see a rash of cases of police being attacked for no other reason than to steal their guns. I just do not see this in the news and I suspect that if it was happening, it would make the news (unless the police intentionally were covering up such incidents). Considering the fact that the police don't bother covering up cases where one of them accidentally leaves a handgun in a restroom when they are using it, I suspect they also won't try to cover up them being attacked solely so that the criminal can get their handgun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
And you assume that the leftist NY Times is a better news source than the leftist CNN? LMAO... There's threes sides to every story -- his side, their side, and the truth... They usually don't coincide... The link you provided requires a paid subscription to the NY Times, so I could not read it, but I have no reason to believe that the TRUTH is somewhere between the claims of the criminals and the claims of the police / government.

Besides, if open carry was not a deterrent, why would police and security guards do it? It's a "show of force" to deter someone from doing something stupid (at least while they are around). It might not deter all of the criminals, but it deters most of them, otherwise we would see a rash of cases of police being attacked for no other reason than to steal their guns. I just do not see this in the news and I suspect that if it was happening, it would make the news (unless the police intentionally were covering up such incidents). Considering the fact that the police don't bother covering up cases where one of them accidentally leaves a handgun in a restroom when they are using it, I suspect they also won't try to cover up them being attacked solely so that the criminal can get their handgun.
The NYT was NOT the source. The NYT did not create those documents. The Court did.
When it was first published, it did not require a subscription. Badges and weapons do not deter felons.
But, then, my experience comes from being on a team for cell extractions with stun shields and batons.
Police cannot cover up when they leave a handgun in a public bathroom that is found by a citizen.
Los Angeles police have released body-camera video of a man attacking an officer, pistol-whipping him with his own gun and shooting at another officer inside the San Pedro station. Investigators say 29-year-old Jose Guzman walked into the Harbor station and got into an altercation with an officer Saturday, Sept. 26.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
And you assume that the leftist NY Times is a better news source than the leftist CNN?
I said started with Brown bitch Slapping Wilson; not an arrest. As I said NYT was not the source. It was the DA. Here is another source:
Wilson and other witnesses stated that Brown then reached into the SUV through the open driver’s window and punched and grabbed Wilson. This is corroborated by bruising on Wilson’s jaw and scratches on his neck, the presence of Brown’s DNA on Wilson’s collar, shirt, and pants, and Wilson’s DNA on Brown’s palm. While there are other individuals who stated that Wilson reached out of the SUV and grabbed Brown by the neck, prosecutors could not credit their accounts because they were inconsistent with physical and forensic evidence, as detailed throughout this report.
 

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I said started with Brown bitch Slapping Wilson; not an arrest. As I said NYT was not the source. It was the DA. Here is another source:
Wilson and other witnesses stated that Brown then reached into the SUV through the open driver’s window and punched and grabbed Wilson. This is corroborated by bruising on Wilson’s jaw and scratches on his neck, the presence of Brown’s DNA on Wilson’s collar, shirt, and pants, and Wilson’s DNA on Brown’s palm. While there are other individuals who stated that Wilson reached out of the SUV and grabbed Brown by the neck, prosecutors could not credit their accounts because they were inconsistent with physical and forensic evidence, as detailed throughout this report.
Thanks for the better link...

I still do not see this as a case of a criminal attacking a police officer in order to get his gun. Brown had already stolen the cigarillos from the store and Wilson though they matched the description of the (strong arm) robbery suspects, so he was going to detain them and had called for backup. By the way he backed up his vehicle, it is reasonable to assume that the criminals would know that this encounter was going to escalate. The gun did not come into play in the incident until the officer pulled it from his holster. Once he did that, it escalated the issue even more and it's not unreasonable that the "fight or flight" response would take over and Brown might think that if he can just keep the gun from being pointed at him, he could avoid getting shot. He ended up getting shot in the hand, so he wasn't particularly successful in this endeavor.

Nowhere in the report did I see anything to indicate that it was an unprovoked attack on the officer solely to steal his weapon from him. If you are within reach of a person and they pull a gun on you, for many, the instinct is to try to grab the barrel / gun and turn it away from them. At least that was my experience when I was shot many decades ago by an "urban youth" who tried to rob me... Still, out of 6 shots fired during the scuffle, only one hit me and it was just in a large muscle and did not hit any major blood vessels, so I guess I can put that in the "success" column... ;)

Not that I have ANY problem with the fact this this criminal was shot...
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Thanks for the better link...

I still do not see this as a case of a criminal attacking a police officer in order to get his gun. Brown had already stolen the cigarillos from the store and Wilson though they matched the description of the (strong arm) robbery suspects, so he was going to detain them and had called for backup. By the way he backed up his vehicle, it is reasonable to assume that the criminals would know that this encounter was going to escalate. The gun did not come into play in the incident until the officer pulled it from his holster. Once he did that, it escalated the issue even more and it's not unreasonable that the "fight or flight" response would take over and Brown might think that if he can just keep the gun from being pointed at him, he could avoid getting shot. He ended up getting shot in the hand, so he wasn't particularly successful in this endeavor.

Nowhere in the report did I see anything to indicate that it was an unprovoked attack on the officer solely to steal his weapon from him. If you are within reach of a person and they pull a gun on you, for many, the instinct is to try to grab the barrel / gun and turn it away from them. At least that was my experience when I was shot many decades ago by an "urban youth" who tried to rob me... Still, out of 6 shots fired during the scuffle, only one hit me and it was just in a large muscle and did not hit any major blood vessels, so I guess I can put that in the "success" column... ;)

Not that I have ANY problem with the fact this this criminal was shot...
Open carry is a danger, even for police. I posted only one case from the LAPD, but there are many cases of a failure of retention. The motivation of the attack and robbery of the weapon is irrelevant.

Whether or not the unprovoked attack by Brown was solely to steal his weapon no one can know for certain, but I do not see how motivation is relevant to the issue of retention.. In the other response to your SAME post I provided you with an instance of an unprovoked attack in LA where the officer was in his own station and disarmed.

I have a problem when police execute someone for bitch slapping them. It was not self-defense. You do not chase a unarmed severely wounded man 153 feet to deliver a coup de grace in self defense. Yes. Ultimately, Brown would likely have been convicted of robbery. He was never proven to be a criminal under the law. Dead men do not get due process. If you or I had done the same thing, we would have been arrested, convicted, and put in prison. The use of deadly force is unconstitutional unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.
SEE U.S. Supreme Court Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)No. 83-1035
Held: The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.
 

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If you carry a large pink purse, you can carry several guns or a very large handgun and lots of ammo. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
If you carry a large pink purse, you can carry several guns or a very large handgun and lots of ammo. :p
Personally, I have no experience with a large purse, pink or otherwise. I will bow to your expertise. I am sure that would go unnoticed in NW Portland, except as a fashion faux pas. That would be concealment, but not camouflage. What I am looking for is weapons in open carry that are unseen. The difference is as important as the difference between cover and concealment. I am looking for a sort of carry like a Shaolin priest:
It is said a Shaolin priest can walk through walls.
Looked for, he cannot be seen.
Listened for, he cannot be heard.

Touched, he cannot be felt.

Cover is a barrier to bullets penetrating the victim.
Concealment is a barrier to seeing the victim.
Camouflage is a barrier to knowing the victim is armed.
Organism Font Terrestrial plant Science Event
 

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For me the easiest and best way to conceal carry is in a pocket and in or on the waistband. To conceal in or around the waistband I just wear shirts that are styled to be untucked and loose fitting. No problems no hassles I’ve been doing this since 2004.
 

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The closest thing to "camouflage" I have come concerning concealment was when I used to carry in Thunderwear. This was like a nail apron that went in the front of the pants. Small auto only.

I noticed the butt printing and called the maker. He told me "wear pleated pants to hide that." Those worked as long as the butt lined up with a pleat. I no longer carry that way but still prefer pleated pants.

Original advertisement photo of the holster.

Smile Shorts Muscle Flash photography Gesture
 
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