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Discussion Starter #1
What we really need:

1. Get the rich out of Congress, Senate and the White House. I make about $60,000 a year and have 3 kids. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY!!!!

2. A gun rights organization NATIONWIDE! Sorry NRA, your a lobbyist and have not stepped out for National concealed carry or the rights of people to defend themselves loud enough.

3. A true militia, I'm not talking about rising up against the government. What I want is a group of citizen soldiers who are not deployed overseas and ready to defend our soil.

4. Less government control, I don't believe our founding fathers intended for us to ask permission to exercise our "inalienable rights" except perhaps from God. I sure don't need a permit to go to church, speak my mind, vote etc.

You deserve what you tolerate...and we need to stop taking this crap from the government. Our rights are not given to us by the government, they are not given to us by the Constitution, they are ours when we are born and are only guaranteed by the Constitution.
 

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great idea, but hard to undo so many years of stagnation in office.
 

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rocky said:
great idea, but hard to undo so many years of stagnation in office.
It's like that saying, "Crap in one hand, wish in the other - see which one fills up quicker."
 

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Hmmm...

1. Would require a complete revamping of the entire electoral process. I can't imagine it happening in my lifetime.

2. Might work...but it would probably end up not much different from the NRA in order to be effective. When attempting to defend firearm rights and laws, lobbying is a necessity.

3. Though unorganized, I'd say we already have that...and I'm not sure how organized I'd be comfortable with it being.

4. Yes...goes without saying...and irrevocably tied to the first 3.
 

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Despite best efforts of the relatively few - too much is deeply set to manage a change as we might wish.

In attempts however to redress the balance, then at least some control over further slide down the slippery slope may happen. So much is and has been ''change by stealth".
 

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The sad part is you can start with #1. Unless you are rich you can't afford to run. So probably the only way to change the people in the government would be if someone happened to nuc DC! And then you most likely just get a new bunch of "fat cats" in office.

Kind of depressing, ain't it? :1zhelp:
 

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cjm5874 said:
What we really need:

1. Get the rich out of Congress, Senate and the White House. I make about $60,000 a year and have 3 kids. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY!!!!
Not all of them are rich but an lot of them seem to end up that way.

2. A gun rights organization NATIONWIDE! Sorry NRA, your a lobbyist and have not stepped out for National concealed carry or the rights of people to defend themselves loud enough.[/qutoe]

Unfortunately the NRA's battles are run by the Lawyers and that is where the real issues are fought, that is expensive so they have to pick their crusades carefully.
[qutoe]
3. A true militia, I'm not talking about rising up against the government. What I want is a group of citizen soldiers who are not deployed overseas and ready to defend our soil.
And then the anti's would say "see there is the Milita, the common citizen dose not need guns!
4. Less government control, I don't believe our founding fathers intended for us to ask permission to exercise our "inalienable rights" except perhaps from God. I sure don't need a permit to go to church, speak my mind, vote etc.
The government is suppose to be "for the people, by the people," but the liberals want more government involvement, they want the world ran for them so they can sit home and vegify.
You deserve what you tolerate...and we need to stop taking this crap from the government. Our rights are not given to us by the government, they are not given to us by the Constitution, they are ours when we are born and are only guaranteed by the Constitution.
That is why I preach to everyone get politically involved, be known by your representive on a first name bassis, make your issues and desires known to them, call, write, go visit with them when they have local office hours. It dose not cost a thing except your time.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
And then the anti's would say "see there is the Milita, the common citizen dose not need guns!


But the citizens would be the militia, all people 16-106, just like colonial times.

I realize my thoughts are Utopian, however once upon a time so were thoughts of independence from England. I'm not saying all this is possible, or even probable. But if enough of us work towards it some small changes are a start. I would be happy if an elected official ran for office on what he was going to do right instead of what his opponent did wrong. It's the little things that make a difference.
 

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This is kind of a hard one to comment on since I am a military veteran and have had the opportunity to see the other side of the coin.

First, yes there is no perfect system, but realize you live in the Greatest Country in the World and it really does love its people. However, there are some things that could be done to tweak the system, but first citizens must stand up and vote and stop being couch potatoes.

Second, and not to bash you but 60,000 a year is really not all that bad I know people such as teacher's who I work closely being that I am a Mental Health Counselor in the School system who make less than that and who are precious because without them we would all be barbarians.

Third, we have an army of citizens the National Guard and those good people like yourself who frequent this site. The real problem in this country is that we are spoiled and we continue to let small things separate us such as color, social status etc. Let's be Americans. In addition, we have people that constantly complain about the system but have not lived in Haiti, have not slept under the cold lit night of Afghanastain and Iraq. Many people say that one does not appreciate life until they almost lose it.

Lastly, and I am not bashing you but I noticed that you and I are very close in age, and all I can say is my time spent defending this country at home and abroad made me really appreciate our homeland with all of its problems. I challenge you to consider the Military Service if you have not, just to experience life a little, not to say you have not. Furthermore, yes you can travel and see things, but nothing changed me more than seeing other places.

In closing, our experiences and world view often causes us to take positions that have not been fully thought out. Moreover, anger and disappointment also tends to warp our thinking and we seek to rally the troops to cause strife in the land. For example all of the marchers and people who are against our current fight overseas. Well, when you stand in the MEPS station and you swear to defend this country you never know if your card is going to get pulled or not but if it does you are fighting for more than the President of the United States you are fighting for a way of life and the people who represent it daily. You are fighting for the right to travel to Wal-Mart at Midnight and not get caught in a Fire fight along the way. You are fighting for the right to worship as you please. You are fighting for the right to voice your opinion here in this open forum without fear of having your kids shot, your wife raped and you tortured and killed You are fighting for the right to be free. "Lock and Load" :cool:
 

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BlueLion--very well said.

As a retired veteran of three wars, I could not agree more.

Thank you!!!
 

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BlueLion,

Another war veteran agreeing with you 100%.

Thank you for posting your thoughts, very well expressed.
 

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Good post Blue :smile:
 

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My sincerest and most humble thanks to all our combat veterans. I served during the so called "Cold War" where we trained to fight the USSR. I lost friends in Beirut, Grenada (where only a small handful were KIA and one was my former platoon medic) and in training accidents. Each loss still hurts me to this day. Mostly because by a twist of fate I was not there to share the risk. I volunteered for a return to active duty on Sept 12th 2001, but was very politely told "no thanks" probably due to my medical profile at the time of my discharge from active duty.
 

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cjm5874 said:
What we really need:

1. Get the rich out of Congress, Senate and the White House. I make about $60,000 a year and have 3 kids. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY!!!!

2. A gun rights organization NATIONWIDE! Sorry NRA, your a lobbyist and have not stepped out for National concealed carry or the rights of people to defend themselves loud enough.

3. A true militia, I'm not talking about rising up against the government. What I want is a group of citizen soldiers who are not deployed overseas and ready to defend our soil.

4. Less government control, I don't believe our founding fathers intended for us to ask permission to exercise our "inalienable rights" except perhaps from God. I sure don't need a permit to go to church, speak my mind, vote etc.

You deserve what you tolerate...and we need to stop taking this crap from the government. Our rights are not given to us by the government, they are not given to us by the Constitution, they are ours when we are born and are only guaranteed by the Constitution.
1. Agreed to a point. I will agree your relative level of wealth skews your perspective and will always alienate you from people that have more or less. However being rich or poor does not imply any sense of morality.

I've encountered some very wealthy people who I think would represent me very well because we see eye to eye on the most important things, and they're what I'd call responsibly wealthy. They realize that the more you have, the more is expected of you and act accordingly.

However, it's the flakes and the seemingly undeserving rich that get all the attention and get our blood boiling. I admit it does make me sad that Tom Cruise has 50 million dollars and his life's work is less important to me than the life's work of a man who makes sandwiches at Subway. However Tom Cruise doesn't represent everyone that has more money than me, thank God.

I've encountered many people that have less than I do who I do not agree with on anything.

I think what you're against is not the wealthy, but rather the professional politician. I've always maintained I want a President who spent his life teaching high school social studies. I'm tired of our officials all being lawyers who create more useless laws to perpetuate their profession. No offense lawyers, but the responsible thing to do would be to use one's legal expertise to minimize the government, not expand it. There is no reason a group of people with that much legal expertise should draft so many ridiculous laws unless they were looking to cater to their interests or someone else's. It's like a gathering of mathematicians who couldn't solve a series of algebra problems between them.

2. Gunowners of America member myself. JFPO. AFA. They're out there.

3. We do have this, we're just in danger of losing it. Thing is, I don't think the citizen militia was ever meant to be used for anything short of combatting a foreign invasion's occupation force. What's paradoxical is that by having such a thing, we almost completely insure that such a thing will never occur. It's brilliant. People do it of their own free will, and thereby insure that their services will never be needed, and it costs nothing. I'm pretty confident that if Iraqi insurgents who never even fired a gun before can make a months long stand against the best military in the world, I could take down a few members of the Chinese military if I caught them marching down my street. When we lose this citizen milita however, it's only a matter of time before something grave does happen.

4. I agree. I realize our society did reach a point somewhere where it did become necessary to expand the government considerably, however past generations have let it go way too far. What kills me is that to fix it, all we have to do is stop it. The BATF and FEMA and the Patriot Act and the '86 Ban and everything we hate could be eliminated in one week with the stroke of a pen. There is no excuse for it not happening right now.

BlueLion said:
This is kind of a hard one to comment on since I am a military veteran and have had the opportunity to see the other side of the coin.

First, yes there is no perfect system, but realize you live in the Greatest Country in the World and it really does love its people. However, there are some things that could be done to tweak the system, but first citizens must stand up and vote and stop being couch potatoes.

Second, and not to bash you but 60,000 a year is really not all that bad I know people such as teacher's who I work closely being that I am a Mental Health Counselor in the School system who make less than that and who are precious because without them we would all be barbarians.

Third, we have an army of citizens the National Guard and those good people like yourself who frequent this site. The real problem in this country is that we are spoiled and we continue to let small things separate us such as color, social status etc. Let's be Americans. In addition, we have people that constantly complain about the system but have not lived in Haiti, have not slept under the cold lit night of Afghanastain and Iraq. Many people say that one does not appreciate life until they almost lose it.

Lastly, and I am not bashing you but I noticed that you and I are very close in age, and all I can say is my time spent defending this country at home and abroad made me really appreciate our homeland with all of its problems. I challenge you to consider the Military Service if you have not, just to experience life a little, not to say you have not. Furthermore, yes you can travel and see things, but nothing changed me more than seeing other places.

In closing, our experiences and world view often causes us to take positions that have not been fully thought out. Moreover, anger and disappointment also tends to warp our thinking and we seek to rally the troops to cause strife in the land. For example all of the marchers and people who are against our current fight overseas. Well, when you stand in the MEPS station and you swear to defend this country you never know if your card is going to get pulled or not but if it does you are fighting for more than the President of the United States you are fighting for a way of life and the people who represent it daily. You are fighting for the right to travel to Wal-Mart at Midnight and not get caught in a Fire fight along the way. You are fighting for the right to worship as you please. You are fighting for the right to voice your opinion here in this open forum without fear of having your kids shot, your wife raped and you tortured and killed You are fighting for the right to be free. "Lock and Load" :cool:
True, all is not lost.

The framers of this country had the idea of a yeoman farmer: a nation of people who weren't particularly affluent, but who could work honestly and live life with dignity. Basically people who maybe didn't have a lot of material trappings, but who had what they needed to be secure. The old 50 acres and a mule and a homestead and all that.

The idea was that not everyone would prosper because for someone to succeed, many more must fail, but the idea was you'd still have a stake in the country and in the system no matter what happened so you'd keep trying to succeed even if you never did. What we have instead is a nation of welfare check collectors and people who are subverted to a certain lifestyle they don't deserve.

I work at a necessary and highly demanding service, yet I don't even own any real estate or any hard investments beyond the ones I talk about on this forum. My portfolio has less money in it than I pay for insurance each year, and my retirement fund is property of the state of Texas and can be taken away from me at any time. As a matter of fact, the state just recently took away my ability to decide when I retire and it also took away my ability to decide what I do with my life after I retire.

I have no dignity basically. If I needed a $120,000 operation to save my life, I'd die. My insurance wouldn't pay for it. I don't even have a place to live. I have to rent one. I'm forced to teach a state required curriculum in a very specific way instead of relying on my own expertise. The government has to give me permission to drive a car or own a gun. There is something entirely wrong with this system and it ain't about the money.

And I am far better off than almost all of my friends my age save one.

The aformentioned Tom Cruise entertains and does so poorly and is rewarded greatly. A US soldier who fights and does so bravely is punished greatly. A man who lies and schemes and produces nothing tangible or at least beneficial is often rewarded. A man who does perfectly honest work and produces something tangible and useful is often punished.

That is the problem. I know how to solve it. Stop buying Tom Cruise's service. Eliminate ridiculous programs the government shouldn't even have to pay the soldiers a decent wage. Stop social welfare programs and instead stop making people pay for them so maybe that honest hard working man who flips burgers for a living and thus doesn't qualify for free handouts can have a chance at something better.

Let educators decide what is taught in schools. Let doctors decide what drugs to give their patients. Let parents decide what is good for their children.

If this doesn't happen, the places our combat veterans see, that will be our country. It's a very thin line that separates us from the Third World.

Both of these guys are right. The situation is bleak and rapidly getting worse, but it's not so bad we can't change it.

Change happens one little bit at a time. I think the very worst problem facing us is the failures of the education system. So that's where I work. Whether I am right or not is immaterial. I am trying to fix one little part of the problem that I have the personal capability of addressing. I hope that over the course of my career, I make some kind of meaningful change with longer lasting effects.

An awful lot of us little people just pecking away at it tirelessly is what it'll take.

I've always viewed myself as the bare minimum I think we should all try to do in many regards. So maybe I don't have a million dollars for the GoA. Well I do have $20. Here you go GoA here's my $20, and I hope Ted Kennedy chokes on it.

Now if only 2% of the US population could do that, we'd actually have something. Now imagine if the 60+ million gunowners who should all care so much about their rights did it.

Quite frankly I am convinced my country does not love me, not at all. Hell it doesn't even like me. It's not obligated to however. The USA was here first.

But I love it. And that means being hard, and strict, and mean to it until it gets itself back under control. I don't like being a hardass. It's not my nature. I'm one of the gentle sheep. But the fact is, being a hardass is the only way I'm ever going to get anything accomplished.

The fact is, the real hardasses are the ones over there right now doing the dirty work wimps like me are too soft for. USAF, Navy, Army, USMC, it matters not it's all a part of the big picture.

And then they come home and see this stupidity and dumbassness that I've let happen. Courts that vehemently defend other religions ruling that consulting Bible verses is not a valid means by which a jury should make its decision, places existing in the U.S. where you can't even own a handgun much less carry one, vile terrorist apologists being given accolade, genuinely needy and deserving people being tossed aside like garbage while people who don't work get paid for it... these are all minor problems compared to dealing with bloodthirsty suicidal maniacs with an endless supply of RPGs and IEDs.

It's like when you're a small child and your parents entrust you do to one simple thing while they're gone, and you don't do it, only you have no excuses this time.

No matter how much we try, the veterans will never abandon us or regret their service because their consciences are clear. They have done what is right and thus are accountable to no one.

However my conscience is not clear. There are things in this country that are wrong and I'm letting them happen. Not having the resources to deal with it is not an excuse. The fact that I did not cause it is not an excuse. Just because everyone else is willing to allow the wrong things to happen is not a free pass for me to sit there and throw my hands up.

I realize that I will never, ever, make so much as a dent in it, but the fact is I can either be a piece of crap who does nothing, or I can try to redeem myself somehow...

I do fear that it will get to a point within the next 20-30 years when there will be no hope for change. At such time, it's time for the blood of patriots to water the tree of liberty again. It doesn't have to be that way however. It's entirely preventable and far more practical at this point to fight the tide with what we've already got.
 

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As a Vietnam Combat Vet, Well said BlueLion. Outstanding.

Euc, you make some valid points. I'm impressed, tho you common sense, formally well educated types often do that.

I'm just a former spec ops vet who has a decent though not formal education. I see one valid thing that could be done to help change our political system immediately.

On every ballot is a box that says 'none of the above'. Now we won't any longer have a choice which amounts to the lesser of two evils. When the majority selects 'none of the above' then you have to have a new primary election, find two new candidates, Whoops, there goes the hundred million dollar election campaigns. The money brokers aren't going to invest that kind of money into a campaign that will never win.

Maybe then 'the common man' could run for office again.

I am also tired of only seeing lawyers running for office. Part of what has gone wrong with this country (ok a lot) is attributable to lawyers. We need to have scientists, mathematicians and teachers running this country.

We used to be the greatest 'can do' country on the face of the planet. Now, IMHO, we have become the whinniest, sorriest bunch of 'it's not my job', 'I can't do that', 'somebody save me from myself' people.

We have gotten so comfortable and had it so good for so long that unless it affects you personally, it's not your problem.

Now I know that most on this forum don't fall into this same category, but this is where the country is going.

IMO teachers should be some of the highest paid professionals in society. They possess and harness our future. Give them the tools, the salary and a system of regulations that allows them to teach and mold young minds.

Enough rambling. GREAT thread guys.
 

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Does anyone remember the "Throw the Bastards Out!" grassroot movement of a few elections ago? This particularly applies to the House of Representatives. The founding fathers made it a 2 year term of office because they wanted it to be composed people who had a life to go back to after a couple of years doing a civic duty. The Senate was supposed to be the body with the long range view, a counter balance to passions of the moment. Now we have just the reverse. Senators flitting to the issue of the day, and Representatives in their positions for life. Re-elect no one, and the huge amounts of money spent on campaigns will diminish.

Our Constituion is contract between the individuals in this country and the Federal government. I'm beginning to believe that contract has been violated and may soon be null and void. I think it was Jefferson who thought we should have a revolution every few years to keep the government honest. We may well be overdue.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
BlueLion....

First of all you are not the only person who has spent time in the military, you did yours in the desert, I did mine in the belly of a submarine 9 1/2 years worth. Maybe I didn't get shot at, but my boat fired some of the first Tomahawks at Afghanistan after 9/11. I was at sea trying to figure out just how bad thing were in NJ and NY (where my family is) when those jackoffs hit the towers. I am not bashing our country or our way of life, but you know as well as I do that our government does not operate the way it was initially planned. I said I am not anti-US, our government just needs an overhaul. And you're right 60k a year is not bad money, but over 60% of our elected federal officials are millionaires...60K < 1mil.


Euc, seriously...do you write novels? That was a long post man. :eek:
 

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Well, let's see. If we get active in our local Republican organization (sorry Libertarians, but we're talking about winning elections here) and let your kids see you being politically active (stuffing envelopes, manning telephone banks, kicking in...oops knocking on doors) then perhaps they will take an interest and at such time that they can make a choice, perhaps they will become involved. Then they can start paying their "dues". Then, in a few years, the organization might choose to run them for some office.

A number of years ago, the local Republican organization sent a notice around to its members recruiting people to run for town council. When they interviewed me, the big question was "How many votes can you deliver just because you're you?" "Well, let's see, there's me, my wife and my next door neighbor." Needless to say, that didn't impress them too much. Had the same question been asked in the town where my gun club is I could have told them that the club has 2200 members. I think that might have gotten their attention.

When Bret Schundler was trying to win the primary election for governor, the organization asked me to run for freeholder (whatever that is) for the sole purpose of having a "ticket" that would get him a fovorable line on the ballot. I had no interest in the office and made no effort to campaign. I still got over 3000 votes. Came in last in a field of 4, but the winner didn't get that many more votes. (there were two seats to be filled and one of the first two finishers were involved in some kind of scandle, so the third place winner got one of the seats - oh well, as they say, when two of you are being chased by a bear, you don't need to be able to outrun the bear, you only need to be able to out run the other fellow)

I think it all comes down to education and getting involved as early in life as possible. At one meeting, the local organization's president's son had attended the convention for Bob Dole and at the next meeting gave us a report. I had expected to hear about him being involved in various things, but basically all he did was throw confetti on cue. That was his job. But he was a college kid and, if he continued to be active, could be expected to move on to bigger things.
 
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