[roff]

Lets say after a night of drinking (not carrying while drinking) you go out to eat with some friends and its after midnight. You are a bit buzzed or drunk even and you stupidly decide to carry your gun into the restaurant. A bad guy comes in to rob the place and starts shooting random people and you pull out your gun and shoot and kill the bad guy. What would happen now?

assuming you are in a state that does not allow drinking or having alcohol in your system while carrying.

 

[Maverick7340]

Get a good lawyer because you soon will have someone named "Bubba" as a room mate.

 

[Ram Rod]

You'd go from hero to zero in a heartbeat.

 

[farronwolf]

Ok, it is after midnight and you have been drinking, then you go to a restaurant and this occurs.

I think it is going to have a lot to do with where you live. In Texas you aren't allowed to carry when your under the influence. That is the only law you have broken. Your license will most likely be suspended and you will be charged with that.

If the BG is shooting folks at random and innocent people have been shot, but you stop the BG from shooting more innocent people, I don't think your going to be charged with anything as a result of this act.

In Houston, you might have more of a problem than I would in my community, but that is the price you pay for living in Houston.

I doubt other than the charge for carrying concealed while under the influence, if it happened here much else would come of it. You would not be held as hero, but I doubt you would be spending any time behind bars either.

You would need to keep your mouth shut, and not submit to any BAC test or let them draw blood. I am in no way advocating that you use this type of scenario to break the law and carry while under the influence of alcohol. Most states would string you up quicker than the BG doing the robbery and killing, I just don't see it playing out that way here. Sucks for most of the rest of you.

 

[Bark'n]

First of all, I am not a lawyer, however you do not forfeit your right to self defense because you have been drinking. That also includes lethal force. So, I would say... If you shoot and kill an armed robber who has already shot several people, chances are fairly good that you will be OK. Provided you didn't have any stray shots hit another innocent person. You have a prima facie case of being in immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious injury.

You may need a decent lawyer and you may be charged. But there is also a good possibility that you won't be charged at all in this case.

Again, a person does not ever forfeit their right to defend themself just because they have been drinking.

Now if you have been drinking and committing a crime with a gun, most of the time the penalties are enhanced because of the alcohol involvement. But if you are defending yourself or others (and in this case, I would clearly state that I was defending myself), you are not committing any gun crime.

If they do want to pursue charges, I would at least argue the "doctrine of competing harms." Doctrine of competing harms comes from English common law and means you are allowed to break the law in the rare circumstance where following the law would cause more human injury than breaking it.

In any case, if you've been out drinking and then stopped at a restaurant and took your gun inside and then got into a gunfight, I'd say you are having The Mother of All Bad Days and really, anything goes.

The problem with drinking and guns, is that often times, people make the wrong decision about using their gun as a result of drinking too much and the effects of the alcohol clouding your judgment. In this scenario, I really don't see that to be the case. It's pretty friggon obvious that someone is killing the restaurant patrons and you are in just as much danger as everyone else of getting killed.

 

[oneshot]

First of all, I am not a lawyer, however you do not forfeit your right to self defense because you have been drinking. That also includes lethal force. So, I would say... If you shoot and kill an armed robber who has already shot several people, chances are fairly good that you will be OK. Provided you didn't have any stray shots hit another innocent person. You have a prima facie case of being in immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious injury.
Bark'n

I'm weighin' in on this one with Bark'n, that sounds logical

"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

 

[SIXTO]

You'll have one hell of a hangover.

After the shooting, crack open another one and drink up asap. Seriously. ( the other cops and smarter attorneys will get that comment.)

 

[Laser Sailor]

Good Call Sixto, you will, after all that, need to calm your nerves somewhat . . .

 

[SIXTO]

Good Call Sixto, you will, after all that, need to calm your nerves somewhat . . .

Well, that isnt exactly why I said to do that, but yeah... that'll help with that too.

 

[HotGuns]

What would happen now?

If you were in the south, you would be lauded as a hero for doing what needed to be done. You would be in the local paper, everyone you knew would offer to buy your supper for weeks to come, and drinks would be free for some time. The people that you didn't know would want to be your friend and the local paper would do a 3 page layout on you in the Special Interest section.

If you were in the North-East, you would be jailed, denied bail, and you would have to sell everything you owned to pay a lawyer who would demand half payment up front. Your children would be shunned in school, your wife would become a social outcast, and the local news station would slam you for having the audacity to defend yourself instead of calling the cops.Your assets would be seized and given to the family of the dead shooter, after your property was searched for weapons which would be seized and eventually melted.

If you were in the west, people in bars everywhere would raise a glass and salute the fine display of heroism...unless it was in California, where you would be immediately jailed.The news media in Ca. would have your picture pasted on every station, and mention that you owned an assault pistol and that you belonged to subversive groups such as the NRA and the local gun club. The Governater would make a statement about the radical actions taken and mention that the bad guy really was a good guy that was just misunderstood.

Everywhere else in the West, the weapon used would be discussed, as well as the caliber and the actual scenario would be talked about for years to come. Some of the local Pistol Academies would set up the actual scenario complete with furniture and start training their students for encounters just like that one so that in the event that it ever happened again, they would be prepared.

In the North-West, you might be OK as long as you weren't in the yuppiefied big cities. If you were, your actions would be scrutinized by soccer moms everywhere and rallys would be organized to show support for removing guns from private ownership. The whole case would be discussed over latte at the local Starbucks and your actions would be condemned for taking the life of another. The shooter would be hailed as a man that was failed by society, and every Psychologist around would be analyzing what went wrong in the shooters life, placing the blame on his childhood, failed school policies and the fact that he was diagnosed with ADD early on.

In the Mid-West, it would be a very local thing. In one county you might be OK in the next county people would discuss the possibility of dragging you behind a truck on a gravel road because of your actions.Of course, if you were in Illinois, the Governor would have his special SWAT Team raid your house, remove your guns, stomp on your Gun-Owners I.D., call the Bomb Squad to remove what ammo you have and make a public spectacle complete with news coverage when they destroyed your ammo by blowing it in the blast barrel.

It really does depend on where you live.

 

[Eagleks]

Toast.

 

[Janq]

I'm all in on Bark'n's comments.

So much so that he posted nearly exactly what I would have said myself, as an opinion based on observation of real world with other people situations and results. Items such as this have occurred including persons defending their home as well as their person as on their own property, after having armed them self subsequent to notification of a threat.

From what I've read amongst these items the key theme for folks seems to be one word; Reasonableness.

As viewed by the county or state DA and if it goes bad the jury too, would they upon trying to imagine them self in your shoes deem your actions as amongst the _totality_ of the facts deem your actions and reactions to have been reasonable.

Of course there have been cases where even with a degree of reasonableness the DA has decided to make a case of it. But typically those are states where upon wounding or killing a human being it is mandatory to charge a person as per that states own legal code. A perfect example of as much is MA where the killing of any human being regardless of the catalyst or underlying reason is by state code requiring a trial.

Which leads to the post by Farron only to be followed up in IMHO excellent specific regional detail by Hot Guns...

Where did this occur and under what very specific circumstance as well as key being, what part of the country are you in down to the state and even in cases what county?!

These are key, above and beyond the otherwise as stated facts of the matter and that of the _defenders_ choice to engage so as to 'stop but not necessarily with specific intent to kill. That latter point BTW about to stop rather than to kill is critical.

But bottom line the post shooting ordeal typically plays out as based on a multiple of items including what are the facts, what can be proven, what are the views of your so called peers, and last but not least what is the sentiment and policy of your county, state, or even regional (!) political and legal machine.

BTW the easy and absolute fix for this situational problem is two-fold:

1) Don't drink socially at all never mind to the point of being buzzed muchless drunk, and thus place yourself in a position of questionable mental judgment AND diminished physical capability so as to defend yourself while out on the streets...At and after midnight (!).

And/Or

2) Do not go out to diners and quick meal joints at or after midnight.
Go home instead and make your own waffles/pancakes/steak and carry your party of friends along with you to there. You have improved safety measures at home and best of all you know your friends won't be driving home to wreck or get peeled for DUI/DWI upon being buzzed or drunk (!). They can simply crash at your place, or you at theirs, to sleep it off.

- Janq will not swap social drinking capability for ability to carry, especially when out after dark muchless at or after midnight. As a personal choice.

 

[DM2]

In MI you're probably in big trouble according to the law. What the jury decides or how good your lawyer is may lead to a favorable outcome but here is what I found in the law.

In MI it will depend on what your blood alcohol content is. Also, the penalties noted below pertain to carrying a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic liquor or other controlled substance. I imagine if you killed someone (BG or innocent) while in violation of this rule, your future would be pretty bleak. The information below can be found here http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf beginning at the bottom of page 25.

Here is a summary.
A content of .10 or higher --> not more than 93 days in jail or $100 fine or both. The court shall also order the permanent revocation of your CPL license.
A content of .08 but less than .10 --> not more than 93 days in jail or $100 fine or both. The court may also order a 3 yr. suspension of your CPL
A content of .02 but less than .08 --> possible $100 fine. The court may also order a CPL suspension for up to 1 year.

Here is something else I found interesting:
"Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to
a chemical analysis under this section."

 

[grady]

After the shooting, crack open another one and drink up asap. Seriously. ( the other cops and smarter attorneys will get that comment.)

Interesting... that way no one will know exactly what your BAC was at the time of the shooting.

Never thought of that. Not that it matters for me since I don't drink any longer, but still interesting strategy. If that is what you were referring to.

 

[SIXTO]

Interesting... that way no one will know exactly what your BAC was at the time of the shooting.

Never thought of that. Not that it matters for me since I don't drink any longer, but still interesting strategy. If that is what you were referring to.

that is. Prove me drunk during the shooting if I've been drinking after the shooting. go ahead... I double dog dare ya!

Not that my plan is fool proof, but it will save you from that particular criminal portion. It wont help much in your civil trial.

 

[MR D]

I am with SIXTO on this one - only depends upon how 'observably intoxicated' you were before you left the last place and when you arrived at the restaurant where the incident occurred.

I would drink a lot (immediately) after a self defense shooting... under these circumstances.

(former 1L) :wave:

 

[Janq]

Interesting... that way no one will know exactly what your BAC was at the time of the shooting.

Never thought of that. Not that it matters for me since I don't drink any longer, but still interesting strategy. If that is what you were referring to.

There is an equal and opposite side to that as well.

Demand immediately upon arrival of the po-po that YOU seek medical attention, as at a hospital. Demand it!
Tell them your heart is racing and you feel light headed and dizzy. Your hands or a limb feels tingly or numb.
Begin to hyperventilate as well.

You will be raced away from the scene to an ER for observation, rest, and ask for a sedative by mouth or shot to help you calm down.
Don't be concerned about lookin' like a punk.

Buy yourself distraction, and time (!).

Next thing you know it's 6 or even 12 hrs. later and you or your wife have called in your attorney because you refuse to make _any_ statements without talking to and through him first.

Now when they go to request a BAC test by blood sampling you'll have had more than enough time to metabolize down if not fully out _both_ the alcohol that was in your system prior as well as the sedative administered to your afterward.

Oh snap...You're clear!

- Janq

 

[RETSUPT99]

There is an equal and opposite side to that as well.

Demand immediately upon arrival of the po-po that YOU seek medical attention, as at a hospital. Demand it!
Tell them your heart is racing and you feel light headed and dizzy. Your hands or a limb feels tingly or numb.
Begin to hyperventilate as well.

You will be raced away from the scene to an ER for observation, rest, and ask for a sedative by mouth or shot to help you calm down.
Don't be concerned about lookin' like a punk.

Buy yourself distraction, and time (!).

Next thing you know it's 6 or even 12 hrs. later and you or your wife have called in your attorney because you refuse to make _any_ statements without talking to and through him first.

Now when they go to request a BAC test by blood sampling you'll have had more than enough time to metabolize down if not fully out _both_ the alcohol that was in your system prior as well as the sedative administered to your afterward.

Oh snap...You're clear!

- Janq

If you could asked to be transported to one of the hospitals around here, your BAC would be pretty good after the 12 hour wait...

To the OP...if you are already admitting to drinking and CCW in a state that says "Don't do it...", your problems are going to be financially prohibitive regardless of the outcome.
How much savings do you have?

 

[BikerRN]

First of all, I am not a lawyer, however you do not forfeit your right to self defense because you have been drinking. That also includes lethal force. So, I would say... If you shoot and kill an armed robber who has already shot several people, chances are fairly good that you will be OK. Provided you didn't have any stray shots hit another innocent person. You have a prima facie case of being in immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious injury.

You may need a decent lawyer and you may be charged. But there is also a good possibility that you won't be charged at all in this case.

Again, a person does not ever forfeit their right to defend themself just because they have been drinking.

Now if you have been drinking and committing a crime with a gun, most of the time the penalties are enhanced because of the alcohol involvement. But if you are defending yourself or others (and in this case, I would clearly state that I was defending myself), you are not committing any gun crime.

If they do want to pursue charges, I would at least argue the "doctrine of competing harms." Doctrine of competing harms comes from English common law and means you are allowed to break the law in the rare circumstance where following the law would cause more human injury than breaking it.

In any case, if you've been out drinking and then stopped at a restaurant and took your gun inside and then got into a gunfight, I'd say you are having The Mother of All Bad Days and really, anything goes.

The problem with drinking and guns, is that often times, people make the wrong decision about using their gun as a result of drinking too much and the effects of the alcohol clouding your judgment. In this scenario, I really don't see that to be the case. It's pretty friggon obvious that someone is killing the restaurant patrons and you are in just as much danger as everyone else of getting killed.

Bark'n "nailed it". :hand10:

 

[gottabkiddin]

I'm with Bark'n on this one, but I like Sixto's strategy too. :scratchchin:

I'd have to say, I line up with Bark'n because I never drink while I'm carrying, it's to much of a no win scenario for me to take that chance on.

The other side of the coin for me is. I would be glad if someone was there that did as you describe, so I wouldn't have to try to figure out how I was gonna try to kill this clown with just my fork or a stake knife.