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When NOT to Shoot

4K views 30 replies 24 participants last post by  The Donny B 
#1 ·
This actually happened here in our neighborhood a few nights ago.

A man, his wife, and two children were taking a walk after dark. They had all the necessary safety items: dayglow vests, flashlights etc. They were walking next to the curb. This is a pretty normal activity around here.

They happened to be walking in front of the home of a man with a license to carry who was outside doing something.

All of a sudden, a car drove up at a pretty good clip and stopped beside the family. Three (or maybe more) occupants wearing face masks. The family and the homeowner heard a loud "click" - a metallic sound, and then a "pop". The mother spun around and cried out in pain. The homeowner saw what appeared to be a carbine sticking out of the back window.

The homeowner drew his gun and prepared to return fire when (as he later told investigating officers) something told him not to shoot. He held his fire but kept the back seat window occupant (the one holding the gun) covered - finger on the trigger. What was described as "hysterical laughing" came from the car and it sped off into the night.

The mother was down in the front yard of the homeowner and the husband and homeowner rushed to her side. She had an enormous welt on her arm and a streak of paint. Law enforcement and EMS responded to the scene and she was treated by the Paramedics. She didn't feel she needed to go to the ER.

Officers caught the "kids" and confiscated two paintball guns - expensive ones that generate quite a bit of power. They were charged, jailed, and are now out on bail. It turned out they had shot a number of people on the same night.

So the scenario is a very important one for those who carry lethal weapons. Do we listen to those "spidey senses" that tell us to either fire or not during an event like this? The consensus around here seems to be that next time those kids (and their parents) may find their luck has run out. We have many new gun owners around who are all unsettled about recent events and may not hesitate.

How about us? Shoot or not?
 
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#4 ·
I should add...

Officers on scene told the homeowner they would probably have fired, had they been in his shoes. I doubt anyone would doubt that would be the response of a reasonable man. Living with that decision would be far more difficult.

No way is this designed to make us hesitate in a situation where defense is needed, just something to alert us to those "gut feelings" or "spidey senses" and learn to pay attention to them.
 
#5 ·
Seems like it would come down to whether you could determine if it was a lethal weapon. If you could determine it wasn't then of course you or the other party is not in "imminent danger of grave bodily harm or loss of life", but if you thought it was a lethal weapon, whether it was or was not, you have an argument and may or may not have to convince a jury your actions were reasonable.
 
#7 ·
As in every discussion like this, a great deal depends on the laws in your state. The fly in the ointment in all this is the simple factor of TIME. You have precious little of it to figure out all the if's, ands, and buts.

It probably should be noted that many people have been gravely injured by paintballs. There is a reason they wear helmets and face shields.
 
#8 · (Edited)
A lot of times stories like this get told based on the way they turn out. Another version might be that he saw a woman shot and he choked and froze.

Eleven months ago in VA, a teen on the back of a scooter did a drive-by paintball attack on a guy for no reason. The victim lost an eye. This past Feb. in VA, a teen robbed a woman at "gunpoint." As he ran away with what he had stolen, she screamed for help. A CC'er saw what was going on, chased after the kid in his car and cut him off. He got out of the car and told the kid to stay where he was. The kid pulled a realistic toy gun, painted black (illegal in VA). The CC'er drew his real gun and put a round in him. The CC'er was not charged. The kid was charged with brandishing a firearm (even though not a real one) and larceny.

I say that if an attacker has shot a victim, the victim has gone down and the shooter is still in position to fire again, there is "imminent threat of grave bodily harm." If you decide you want to help, and you have a shot, that is the time to shoot. If you decide not help, that is your choice.

There is no "spidey sense" that can tell you the shooter has a "non-lethal" weapon. It could be a suppressed carbine, it could be a hunting-level pellet rifle and as we know, a high end paintball gun at close range can cause serious injury. There is every reason to believe there may be a second shot and that shot could cause grave bodily harm. How would you feel if you didn't shoot and a second round from the attacker killed her?

Spidey sense is useful for SA, but when projectiles are flying, I would ignore it. It can't be used it in court and if it causes you to hesitate, it could you or someone else killed. I say a defender has to know the law, know his limitations and then go on what he actually sees. Consider the facts not knowing the outcome:
  • Guys in masks in car pull up quickly
  • Pop sound
  • Carbine is visible
  • Innocent woman goes down in pain
  • Attackers are still in position to fire
  • You have a clear shot to the shooter
The range is hot.
 
#9 ·
This actually happened here in our neighborhood a few nights ago.

A man, his wife, and two children were taking a walk after dark. They had all the necessary safety items: dayglow vests, flashlights etc. They were walking next to the curb. This is a pretty normal activity around here.

They happened to be walking in front of the home of a man with a license to carry who was outside doing something.

All of a sudden, a car drove up at a pretty good clip and stopped beside the family. Three (or maybe more) occupants wearing face masks. The family and the homeowner heard a loud "click" - a metallic sound, and then a "pop". The mother spun around and cried out in pain. The homeowner saw what appeared to be a carbine sticking out of the back window.

The homeowner drew his gun and prepared to return fire when (as he later told investigating officers) something told him not to shoot. He held his fire but kept the back seat window occupant (the one holding the gun) covered - finger on the trigger. What was described as "hysterical laughing" came from the car and it sped off into the night.

The mother was down in the front yard of the homeowner and the husband and homeowner rushed to her side. She had an enormous welt on her arm and a streak of paint. Law enforcement and EMS responded to the scene and she was treated by the Paramedics. She didn't feel she needed to go to the ER.

Officers caught the "kids" and confiscated two paintball guns - expensive ones that generate quite a bit of power. They were charged, jailed, and are now out on bail. It turned out they had shot a number of people on the same night.

So the scenario is a very important one for those who carry lethal weapons. Do we listen to those "spidey senses" that tell us to either fire or not during an event like this? The consensus around here seems to be that next time those kids (and their parents) may find their luck has run out. We have many new gun owners around who are all unsettled about recent events and may not hesitate.

How about us? Shoot or not?
Pay attention to your feeling....but you did a great job....those kids are lucky that you did not fire upon them and they need to know how lucky they were that you held your fire....that is a scary situation and you did well!
 
#12 ·
I can only speak for myself, and wouldn't presume to tell others one way or the other.

With that said, whoever shoots me, or anyone else near and dear to me would do well to pray that I can tell the difference between a paintball hit and a gunshot wound in the amount of time it takes me to draw down and return fire.
 
#30 ·
I can only speak for myself, and wouldn't presume to tell others one way or the other.

With that said, whoever shoots me, or anyone else near and dear to me would do well to pray that I can tell the difference between a paintball hit and a gunshot wound in the amount of time it takes me to draw down and return fire.
Starting out I think the children are really lucky.

I also can only speak for myself. Reading this scenario brings a couple of thoughts to mind. I would not be likely to look to see if it was a paintball hit or a gunshot wound in the time allotted. I think a many of us would respond to the situation as a whole....
fast car pulls up stops
masks
popping sound
cry of pain
person falling
see a gun sticking out of a window

Laughter makes no difference.

If I can see that much.....I might be next....or another innocent.

Decision time.....each of us gets to make his own.
 
#13 ·
@jmf552 With all due respect, brother. Aviators are trained to ignore those "spidey senses" or "gut feelings" that those who go to battle on the ground come to trust. Why? If you trust your gut at night in a cloud and ignore your instruments, what happens?
 
#16 ·
I would respectfully disagree that there is no instinct at play in aviation. There is, but it is on a different level. Look at Captain Sullenberger landing in the Hudson. Things happen that are outside the measurement of the instruments and outside the perview of the procedures. I have been in a few situations and seen a few more in carrier aviation where gut instinct and reflexes saved lives. I have also seen a couple where gut instinct lost lives.

If you trust your gut at night in cloud and ignore your instruments, though, you probably die. That's the classic scenario that gets aviators killed. If anything, your spidey sense has to tell your gut to shut up. The real issue there is that the inner ear determines what our physical attitude is in space and where it is going. But it's designed to be used mostly in two dimensional space and often in conjunction with sight and touch. In three dimensional space, with sight and touch cut off from the outside world, it sends very strong, almost overpowering, signals that are generally wrong.
 
#29 ·
Nope. I went out with my son in law and grandkids and saw a paintball gun that looked exactly like an AR with a floating rail.

As for shoot or don't shoot, could go either way. Immediate reaction? Draw. Further evaluate as you draw. Good call on this one, but realistically, I believe it could be a justified shoot. You have children to worry about. You have only about 0.2 seconds to make a decision to shoot or not shoot. My guess is he stopped as he evaluated the sound. It wasn't from a firearm, or even a supressed firearm.
 
#19 ·
Wow, what a scenario. Good post and good responses. When my son was 14 I had to go get him from jail one night. It seems he and some friends were driving around town pointing a wooden rifle out of the sunroof. I hit the ceiling. He was a good kid with a genius IQ., and did something that stupid? He was freaked out by getting roughed up, handcuffed, and jailed. I made sure he understood how close he came to getting killed, and made him write letters of apology to the local PD. Thankfully, he never did anything that stupid again.
 
#21 ·
If I'm on a jury judging that neighbor, that scenario met every "reasonable man" level for using deadly force.

If I'm on the jury judging those kids--Say hello to Bubba!
 
#22 ·
Y'all understand we don't have all the details. @OneGunTX and I live close together and neither one of us have the full story. Still in all, it seemed to me that this was a not often heard kind of situation that was not common, but could happen to any one of us. I suspect in the final analysis, this is going to be high school kids, high, and extremely bored.

If that is the final outcome, it might be the best recommendation I have heard yet to restart the draft. 😁
 
#25 ·
@OldChap - spidey sense has saved my bacon on occasion. It has also saved me from making awful mistakes on occasion. I have learned to never just ignore it. When split seconds count, spidey sense and experience are often all you have time to consult.
 
#26 ·
It could be argued that the home owner's hesitation was "Not my monkeys and not my circus." or "Can I afford a lawyer if I shoot?" or any number of reasons. In this case, he made what could be considered the right call.

Since my wife & I take our day walk around sunset (in the warm months), I'm most interested in what was the reaction of the husband/father? When we're out walking, I CC and carry a kid's fishing pole (eyelets removed). My wife CCs as well and we train 2-3 times a week. I do believe that the headlines would be quite different if that happened to us.
 
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