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Gman is right on the money with the 165 gr .40SW. This is a brutal round to be on the receiving end.

 

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Yes but look what it did to the bullet. That's not good performance.
It wasn't about how the bullet looked; the videos were examples of why the overpenetration generalization was wrong.

"Not good performance" :scruntiny:
Another look at 180 gr. @ 1,300 fps - No its not just "good" its impressive. :biggrin2:
 

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Back to 40 S&W ... :rolleyes:
Glock 23 is my most carried pistol.
I also have a Glock 19, but prefer the idea of potentially making larger holes in whatever trying to kill me.
I was carrying 180 HST, but got some Winchester Ranger Bonded 165 contract overrun, its not labeled as "low recoil" but my chrono average velocity is indicative that it is and subjectively it is "low recoil", imperceptible difference in recoil from that 165 40 S&W and a 147 +P from a Glock 19.
Importantly, 180 gr. POI was (is) a bit high for my POA, the 165 Bonded hits where I aim. :biggrin2:
I tested the bullet through 4 layer denim into water filled gallon jugs, was very pleased with the result.
Whether the reduced recoil or not, either 165 Ranger bonded performs well in different test media:
http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun%20Bullet%20Barrier%20Testing%20Protocol_2016.pdf


9mm Ranger Bonded loads perform acceptably; 380 in those tests (or otherwise), its not what I'll bet my life on.
 
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Back to 40 S&W ... :rolleyes:
Glock 23 is my most carried pistol.
I also have a Glock 19, but prefer the idea of potentially making larger holes in whatever trying to kill me.
I was carrying 180 HST, but got some Winchester Ranger Bonded 165 contract overrun, its not labeled as "low recoil" but my chrono average velocity is indicative that it is and subjectively it is "low recoil", imperceptible difference in recoil from that 165 40 S&W and a 147 +P from a Glock 19.
Importantly, 180 gr. POI was (is) a bit high for my POA, the 165 Bonded hits where I aim. :biggrin2:
I tested the bullet through 4 layer denim into water filled gallon jugs, was very pleased with the result.
Whether the reduced recoil or not, either 165 Ranger bonded performs well in different test media:
http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun%20Bullet%20Barrier%20Testing%20Protocol_2016.pdf


9mm Ranger Bonded loads perform acceptably; 380 in those tests (or otherwise), its not what I'll bet my life on.
It is really hard to find a bad HP in 40 S&W. At best they behave like a 357 magnum, at worst a 45 ACP.
 

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No, it’s just like you carrying your G26, no? But I guess I agree as my 45 Shield fits the bill too.
Did I mention that the 45 is better than all of them?
That depends on which bullet you use. The lighter faster 40"s mimic the 357 magnum for energy, which absolutely surpasses the 45 ACP. The 180 grain 40's act like a 185 grain 45 ACP in actual shootings.
 

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I've never been a 40 fan. 9mm Glock 17, 19, and 26 has always been my choice for work. Off duty, is when I stray to 380, 45, and different 9mm pistols, but never a 40 cal.
 

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That depends on which bullet you use. The lighter faster 40"s mimic the 357 magnum for energy, which absolutely surpasses the 45 ACP. The 180 grain 40's act like a 185 grain 45 ACP in actual shootings.
I was just being a wisenheimer with the 45 comment.
That’s why I don’t run the heavies in my 40, I have 45s for that. 155 XTP running 1250 or so is very .357ish.
The big hunk of steel CZ 40 is the nightstand gun.
 

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Discussion Starter #129
One of the things all these Gel test never show is where that extra energy might help. If we look at the .357 Sig Gel test with 125 gr HST and compare it to 9mm 124 gr +P HST, the .357 Sig round is travelling around 200 fps. faster. But the penetration & expansion is about the same in Gel. Now add in bone, cartilage, any item being carried or worn by a person, or some other barrier that might get in the way. Does that extra velocity give you a benefit over the slower moving 9mm? Or a larger, heavier round that might hit something a smaller round didn't?
I would think so.

If you're feeling all that energy (blast & recoil) on your end, I would assume it would benefit you on the other end.
 

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One of the things all these Gel test never show is where that extra energy might help. If we look at the .357 Sig Gel test with 125 gr HST and compare it to 9mm 124 gr +P HST, the .357 Sig round is travelling around 200 fps. faster. But the penetration & expansion is about the same in Gel. Now add in bone, cartilage, any item being carried or worn by a person, or some other barrier that might get in the way. Does that extra velocity give you a benefit over the slower moving 9mm? Or a larger, heavier round that might hit something a smaller round didn't?
I would think so.

If you're feeling all that energy (blast & recoil) on your end, I would assume it would benefit you on the other end.
Makes sense to me. Comparing 9mm to .40 with proportional bullet weights (147gr 9mm vs 180gr .40, etc), basically you're getting the same velocity, with about 20% more momentum, energy, and cross-sectional area. It's obviously an improvement.

The downside is 20% more recoil, and whether it's worth it is an individual choice. Personally, I believe the most likely use of a defensive pistol for me is against a BG within a few yards of me, in which circumstance that difference in recoil seems completely irrelevant.
 

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Makes sense to me. Comparing 9mm to .40 with proportional bullet weights (147gr 9mm vs 180gr .40, etc), basically you're getting the same velocity, with about 20% more momentum, energy, and cross-sectional area. It's obviously an improvement.

The downside is 20% more recoil, and whether it's worth it is an individual choice. Personally, I believe the most likely use of a defensive pistol for me is against a BG within a few yards of me, in which circumstance that difference in recoil seems completely irrelevant.
Try 147 grn 9mm vs 135 grn or 155grn 40 much closer comparison than a 180 grn 40.
 

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Try 147 grn 9mm vs 135 grn or 155grn 40 much closer comparison than a 180 grn 40.
Sorry, I meant comparing light for caliber to light for caliber, etc. So 115 gr vs 135gr, 147gr vs 180gr, etc. But the result is the same, .40 has more.
 

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When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?

When you have a .40 S&W and a 9mm. Alternate answer: Carry both.
 

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The .40 expanded to a greater diameter. And under 2000 fps velocity is only useful in generating expansion and penetration. Hydrostatic shock is not a factor in wounding.

The 10mm in this shot expanded past its maximum diameter and ended up at a smaller diameter. That isn't what you want out of a bullet. That's what happens when bullets designed for lower velocities are loaded into a significantly higher velocity round.

That was smoking performance. With the 10 mm you are picking up 300 fps velocity. That is significant.
 

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For me there isn’t much difference tween a hot 9mm and 357 Sig recoil. 40 in the same gun is more difficult for me. But in my 47.5 oz CZ, the hottest 40 is fine. I really enjoy shooting that pistol and it is the one I am most accurate with.

No one here is dreaming of hydrostatic damage with pistol rounds, but the additional power of rounds that are more powerful does count for something.
Shooting various types of inanimate objects makes it become very clear. There has to be similar results in flesh and bone.

With that said, today I have my 365 OWB with std pressure 124gr XTP handloads. Considering today’s agenda, that will be fine.
 

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I think "Wild Bill" Hickok carried a pair of 1851 Colts firing a .38 caliber, 130 grain, ball somewhere south of 1000 fps. Pretty much on par with an anemic 9mm round today. And while he did also favor a shotgun, he seemed to feel adequately prepared with his Colts. And he had a reasonably high expectation of getting into a gun fight.

Ken Waters--a legend in the firearms world--noted that the .38 Special was developed into a very effective defensive revolver over time, especially when using appropriate bullets. In his Pet Loads he references a ".38 Special Super Police" load--a 200 gn flat nosed bullet moving at....wait for it....671fps. (Later increased to 730 fps.)

Soon, reports were coming in attesting to it's effectiveness, criminals being put down at the first shot in each instance with severe bone and/or tissue damage.

I think the modern obsession with 'powerful' rounds is a bit disproportionate to the reality of modern life. Except when it comes to Elk hunting. In that case, use enough gun.
 
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