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Ya left out the cliche "doctors can't tell a difference" which is an anecdotal generalization.
Most likely these cliches that are repeatedly posted on gun forums as fact are based on common ammo, in mainstream calibers including FMJ.
Do doctors spend time on discerning and documenting differences in wounds or focus on saving the patient? I'm guessing the second.

2,000 fps threshold, at that velocity (magically) damage greater than the expanded diameter of the bullet, below that ex: 1,850 fps - nothing? I think not.
Perhaps at common pistol velocities 850-1,100 fps hydrostatic shock is not a factor, so doctors would not likely see that effect in the majority of handgun wounds.
I think some effect on tissue might be seen below 2,000 fps, (fps where it begins unknown) gradually increasing with velocity. (Hypothesis)

To test this hypothesis I shot a deer with a 155 gr. XTP 10mm which expands to about .65
Unlike the "doctors who can't tell a difference" I took pics. with measures of reference, documentation not anecdotal.
The bullet made a 1 1/4'' exit hole leaving the entry side shoulder, and yes I have a measuring tape in pic documenting the wound.
A bit less graphic is the the hole that bullet made exiting the heart, obviously larger than the quarter (.95) used for reference.
View attachment 304028

View attachment 304030

That ^ hole larger than a quarter through dense tissue is after the bullet had already penetrated shoulder/leg, making an even larger hole.
What effect allowed a bullet that expands to .65 to make significantly larger permanent holes in tissue? Bullet velocity was below the magic 2,000 fps.

Maybe a velocity over 1,300 fps? Maybe over 600# KE? Also obtained with 357 Mag and 357 Sig which have very good street results, so I've read.
Regardless the 2,000 fps generalization, may not be correct; just like the one about 10mm overpenetrates.
I've posted this before, there's been at least one study that look at "hydro-static shock" that set the parameters at 500 ft pounds and 12" of penetration.

Was doing some research as to the "why" the .357MAG with 125grn has a favorable reputation as a "stopper". This sort of flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that "all service calibers perform basically the same with modern defensive ammo" mantra. There may be some physiological "stuff" to it.

Energy Transfer Required for Remote Neural Effects Our own research (Courtney and Courtney) supports the conclusion that handgun levels of energy transfer can produce pressure waves leading to incapacitation and injury.[29][30][26][31][32] The work of Suneson et al. also suggests that remote neural effects can occur with levels of energy transfer possible with handguns (roughly 500 ftlbs/700 joules).
Even though Wang et al. document remote neural damage for low levels of energy transfer, these levels of neural damage are probably too small to contribute to rapid incapacitation. Courtney and Courtney suggest that remote neural effects only begin to make significant contributions to rapid incapacitation for ballistic pressure wave levels above 500 PSI (corresponds to transferring roughly 300 ft-lbs in 12 inches of penetration) and become easily observable above 1000 PSI (corresponds to transferring roughly 600 ft-lbs in 1 foot of penetration).[29] Incapacitating effects in this range of energy transfer are consistent with observations of remote spinal injuries,[15] observations of suppressed EEGs and breathing interruptions in pigs,[27][33] and with observations of incapacitating effects of ballistic pressure waves without a wound channel.[34]
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf
 

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Ya left out the cliche "doctors can't tell a difference" which is an anecdotal generalization.
Most likely these cliches that are repeatedly posted on gun forums as fact are based on common ammo, in mainstream calibers including FMJ.
Do doctors spend time on discerning and documenting differences in wounds or focus on saving the patient? I'm guessing the second.

2,000 fps threshold, at that velocity (magically) damage greater than the expanded diameter of the bullet, below that ex: 1,850 fps - nothing? I think not.
Perhaps at common pistol velocities 850-1,100 fps hydrostatic shock is not a factor, so doctors would not likely see that effect in the majority of handgun wounds.
I think some effect on tissue might be seen below 2,000 fps, (fps where it begins unknown) gradually increasing with velocity. (Hypothesis)

To test this hypothesis I shot a deer with a 155 gr. XTP 10mm which expands to about .65
Unlike the "doctors who can't tell a difference" I took pics. with measures of reference, documentation not anecdotal.
The bullet made a 1 1/4'' exit hole leaving the entry side shoulder, and yes I have a measuring tape in pic documenting the wound.
A bit less graphic is the the hole that bullet made exiting the heart, obviously larger than the quarter (.95) used for reference.
View attachment 304028

View attachment 304030

That ^ hole larger than a quarter through dense tissue is after the bullet had already penetrated shoulder/leg, making an even larger hole.
What effect allowed a bullet that expands to .65 to make significantly larger permanent holes in tissue? Bullet velocity was below the magic 2,000 fps.

Maybe a velocity over 1,300 fps? Maybe over 600# KE? Also obtained with 357 Mag and 357 Sig which have very good street results, so I've read.
Regardless the 2,000 fps generalization, may not be correct; just like the one about 10mm overpenetrates.
You don’t need all that velocity to damage tissue, and I agree, that below 2000 fps you are not going to get the damage that a rifle will do.

Heres a sampling of pics of deer taken with a 44 spl with hard cast bullets (LSWC) ,45 Auto with lead bullets ( Round Nose), and a 40 S&W with a 180 weight XTP.

All were hit right, all exhibited major internal damage and bone breakage, and, all were down with the first shot.

Only one bullet broke the 1000 FPS barrier, which was the 40 S&W with the 180 load at 1100 fps
I do not agree with the notion that velocity is that much of a factor within itself in handgun bullets ability to create damage or effect a quick result, because with literally hundreds of game animals shot with various calibers over the last 40 years, I just have not observed any proof in this.

8F740E1E-06D3-4D40-BCFE-FE9484342073.jpeg
Dead coyote. 357 magnum handload. 125 weight at 1400 fps from 15 yards

D5E0768C-5836-4BB0-919B-1E448DE5A564.jpeg
44spl load from M29 at about 21 yards. 250 Keith at 1000 fps

CF098BE9-C706-40C7-9F8A-6C9FE1C1BE23.jpeg

45 Auto. 230 weight Lead RN. 850 FPS at 13 yards.

B770D1AF-5CFD-428D-96C3-BEAC3B2D0C06.jpeg

G22 40 S&W 180 weight Double Tap ammo 1100 FPS XTP. Bullet can be seen under hide. 10-12 yard shot. This next pics shows the direction of travel when hit as he lay after the shot from the tree stand view. 80BEADEC-1F04-4DA1-94A3-432BAB4AC96D.jpeg

I just do not believe in the idea that handgun velocities generate enough energy to make a difference with either tissue damage or shock value.

Velocity vs momentum; both are killers. One just gives you a little better range and a little more superficial tissue damage up closer.
The other much easier on the ears, and will reliably put a hole thru something.

But THIS; is what real damage looks like.

270 w/130 weight handload from 90 yards. 3026 FPS for 3 shots on Chrony.
A43DEF7D-7821-4745-AF5C-9A8964955102.jpeg
 

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You deerslayers do realize these results prove nothing without the deer wearing three layers of denim and a heavyweight hoody.
:haha:
 
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Well....there is this...sincere we’re comparing calibers.....

13D22828-6CD7-4B0A-A991-E4D8B69E3C5F.jpeg
 

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I have shot a Glock G20 with an Underwood 180 grain and a Glock G21 with a Winchester 230 grain PDX1 at the same time in each hand. It was hard to tell the difference in felt recoil.
Charts of recoil comparisons....

E6A438BC-6E1A-4569-B887-C35CB5E5E905.jpeg CF10D718-7BC6-4269-A84D-A4AB3E0ACD1E.jpeg
 

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You deerslayers do realize these results prove nothing without the deer wearing three layers of denim and a heavyweight hoody.
The hide on a deer mimics light clothing. Also, it's alive with organs and bones like people do. A far better way of testing what a round does than using gel. It's the step to take after the gel testing. You could substitute wild pigs for deer. They are plentiful and can also be eaten. Mmm, bacon.
 

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The hide on a deer mimics light clothing. Also, it's alive with organs and bones like people do. A far better way of testing what a round does than using gel. It's the step to take after the gel testing. You could substitute wild pigs for deer. They are plentiful and can also be eaten. Mmm, bacon.
Thanks for the clarification. :icon_neutral:

If my idea for ballistics test media was ever made legal, we wouldn't have to worry about gels, deer, pigs, water jugs, etc. Not only that, we could actually dress up the test subjects with 3 layers of denim and a heavyweight hoody.
 

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Well, you could dress up a pig if you bought a domesticated one. People have done stranger things. I just like my method because it allows for critter control and gets meat to eat.
 

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Unimportant. Steel is not flesh and bone. Bad shot placement will cause all bullets to have minimal impact. I've been paying attention to what a bullet does after it hits the critters I shoot for years. Bullet construction matters. What that bullet was designed to do will determine what normally will happen when you shoot, and obviously hit, the appropriate target with.

Small game rounds tend to not kill larger critters without great/near perfect shot placement. Large game bullets will go through and through on small targets.

While I have not personally used a small round, like a .22 LR on larger game, the type of round I use to hunt with has to have certain characteristics to better kill the bigger cottontails around here should you not get them in the head. Squirrels don't require anything in particular. They are so small, you shoot them in the head or chest they just die.

I can tell you that a very nice nosler hunting round designed for large game will not do much against a smaller critter if you don't hit solid bone going in. I know that from experience shooting a coyote with my deer hunting rifle. I was out trying to call wolves in during the now gone Wisconsin wolf hunt, so I had the tool for that task, not one for the smaller cousins.

At this point in time caliber doesn't matter much for humans. Honestly, caliber no longer matters much for most of the whitetail deer species. Bullet construction has improved vastly since I was a teenager. We can do more with the calibers we have if we use the right ammunition for the job. Handgun ammunition has improved more than hunting rounds. Any caliber we choose, should we practice properly so we can hit dangerous people in the CNS, won't matter should we pick almost any self defense round.

What matters is not the caliber being used, for the ballistics have become very close together for the most commonly used rounds, but our ability to hit the target where it counts. We need to carry what we are comfortable with.
Great information, however, I think that you took my very simple statement and read way too much technicality into it! :vs_lol:

I'm all for shot placement; that's my thing, however, I am also for carrying my favorite round of choice-that being the .45. I'm quite comfortable with it as with my other calibers but I like and prefer the .45. I stand by what I said earlier that I love watching my .45's rock steel targets. I love it! Now, if others feel the 9mm or .40 is great for them or they feel that they are similar ballistically, kool! That doesn't affect my selection whatsoever! :vs_cool:
 

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I’ve seen quality 9mm JHPs at $0.28 ea. I’ve never seen .40 or .45 anywhere close.

https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/460208-federal-xm9001-115-gr-p-9mm-jhps-good-price.html

You can afford to train with the same ammo you carry with a 9mm. Not so much with other calibers. That’s a huge advantage, from a training and proof of reliability standpoint.

And no, not everyone wants to get into reloading.

I have no .40 and have no desire to add one. I have one .45 and likely won’t add any more. I plan on burning through my 9mm FMJ supply, and stocking up on the JHPs when they’re back on sale, and using them almost exclusively going forward.

As far as the rest goes, I find it instructive that this officer didn’t “upgun” to a .45 Super, or a .50 AE, or a .44 Mag. Nor did he stick with a .40-something. Nope. He went with lots and lots of 9mm. Fascinating.

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/


Too many are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem.
 

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For what it's worth, Alaska is home to about 85-95 percent of America's Brown/Grizzly bear population, and they also contend with Polar bears. The Alaska state Troopers, which includes Wildlife Troopers, quit issuing 357mag revolvers, and started issuing 40cal pistols, sometime within the last 20-29 years. First it was the S&W 4006, now the g22. The 10mm Glock g20 are an option for some Troopers. Montana Hwy Patrol's standard issue is the Sig p229 in 357sig. Wyoming Hwy Patrol uses 40cal. Idaho State Police issue the Glock g21 in 45acp. The states of ID, MT, and WY account for the vast majority of Brown/Grizzlies outside of Alaska.

I mention the above because shooters often say 9mm is "enough" against the average human predator, but when the topic switches to wildlife and four legged predators, many shooters are willing to consider other pistol rounds. When I'm in bear or Cat habitat, I want better than a 9mm.
 

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I managed to read through all 12 pages. Saw a lot of valid points. The fact of the matter is, I'd rather carry it over a 9. 9mm has it's place. At the moment I don't have anything in 9mm. My thought is this, unless you are recoil sensitive, or have problems controlling a 40, why would you carry a 9mm for anything other than required for work, or a pocket gun? 115gr @1100 fps or 165gr @1100 fps. The 165gr will have more momentum. It will also dump more energy into whatever you shoot with it. Or, let's say you roll your own... my reloading reference ( which I need a new version, but this works for baseline) 9mm 124 gr 1248fps 40 155gr 1267fps. 31 extra grains of lead, with the same pressure, 33,300 cup. Gee, which to choose? Want a fast 115gr bullet? Yup, roll her own with 9mm, 1300 fps, give or take a few, for that magical 33k cup. Or go 38 acp, for 1436fps, with 23k cup.....

Going straight off the numbers for common rounds, 40 trumps 9mm by more than enough for me to consider 9mm weaker, comparatively speaking. Each caliber out there has a use. If 9mm floats your boat for whatever reason, have at it. You won't catch me using a 9mm as a primary carry caliber. It may eventually make it into carry rotation for me, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to have it replace my 40.

Want a real hoot? Look at the "advertised" velocity for general fmj (147gr 9mm, 180gr 40, 230gr 45) on the midway website. Most of them are running 900-1000fps. Bottom line, shoot what you're comfortable and accurate with.
 

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The hide on a deer mimics light clothing. Also, it's alive with organs and bones like people do. A far better way of testing what a round does than using gel. It's the step to take after the gel testing. You could substitute wild pigs for deer. They are plentiful and can also be eaten. Mmm, bacon.
The problem with this is that the bullets you want for SD are not the bullets you want for hunting. And the bullets you want for hunting are not what you want for SD.

For SD you want a bullet that causes maximum damage but penetrates deep enough to affect vital organs. The most effective examples are light and fast for caliber. For hunting you want a heavy solid bullet that penetrates deep without causing lots of tissue destruction. I know many people are lost on this as every hunter seems to now need the latest greatest belted magnum for shooting deer.

Using that logic the light fast JHP's are what I favor for SD. !25 grn 357 magnum, 180 grn 44 magnum, 155 grn 40 S&W.
 

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I managed to read through all 12 pages. Saw a lot of valid points. The fact of the matter is, I'd rather carry it over a 9. 9mm has it's place. At the moment I don't have anything in 9mm. My thought is this, unless you are recoil sensitive, or have problems controlling a 40, why would you carry a 9mm for anything other than required for work, or a pocket gun? 115gr @1100 fps or 165gr @1100 fps. The 165gr will have more momentum. It will also dump more energy into whatever you shoot with it. Or, let's say you roll your own... my reloading reference ( which I need a new version, but this works for baseline) 9mm 124 gr 1248fps 40 155gr 1267fps. 31 extra grains of lead, with the same pressure, 33,300 cup. Gee, which to choose? Want a fast 115gr bullet? Yup, roll her own with 9mm, 1300 fps, give or take a few, for that magical 33k cup. Or go 38 acp, for 1436fps, with 23k cup.....

Going straight off the numbers for common rounds, 40 trumps 9mm by more than enough for me to consider 9mm weaker, comparatively speaking. Each caliber out there has a use. If 9mm floats your boat for whatever reason, have at it. You won't catch me using a 9mm as a primary carry caliber. It may eventually make it into carry rotation for me, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to have it replace my 40.

Want a real hoot? Look at the "advertised" velocity for general fmj (147gr 9mm, 180gr 40, 230gr 45) on the midway website. Most of them are running 900-1000fps. Bottom line, shoot what you're comfortable and accurate with.
Don't forget the 135's.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/40-s-w-135-grain-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785725644857
 

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I’ve seen quality 9mm JHPs at $0.28 ea. I’ve never seen .40 or .45 anywhere close.

https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/460208-federal-xm9001-115-gr-p-9mm-jhps-good-price.html

You can afford to train with the same ammo you carry with a 9mm. Not so much with other calibers. That’s a huge advantage, from a training and proof of reliability standpoint.

And no, not everyone wants to get into reloading.

I have no .40 and have no desire to add one. I have one .45 and likely won’t add any more. I plan on burning through my 9mm FMJ supply, and stocking up on the JHPs when they’re back on sale, and using them almost exclusively going forward.

As far as the rest goes, I find it instructive that this officer didn’t “upgun” to a .45 Super, or a .50 AE, or a .44 Mag. Nor did he stick with a .40-something. Nope. He went with lots and lots of 9mm. Fascinating.

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/


Too many are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem.
You can find all kinds of practice ammo for the 40 @ 28 cents a round, you do not need to train with premium hollow point ammo, even most federal agencies stopped doing that. Nut the bottom line is you just do not like the 40, and that is fine.

Yup Tim is a great guy. He is the second inner city cop I know in the last decade that has figured out that the 45 ACP ain't all that compared to some of the more modern offerings. Personally I prefer 357 Sig over the 40 or the 9mm.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-40-sw
 

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NEVER.. Same reason, almost all LEO agency's have gone from the 40 cal to the 9mm.

For hiking, woods camping, hunting, better off going with a hunting caliber, like 357 mag 10mm or 44 mag.

However, I have killed my fair share of wild boar with the 9mm and I suspect your new 40 cal would do the same.
 

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Here’s my take as an LEO. I have the same calibers as you. 9mm for summer and .40 caliber for winter. Best scenario.
 

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In what scenario would I carry the .40 over a 9mm?

Your thoughts?
There is no scenario in which I would carry a 9mm over a .40 or .45. Go big or stay home.
 
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