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The updated numbers for Wisconsin are not even worth caring about. With 1% of the population being tested, we have a confirmed .1% rate of infection of the overall population. With 266 deaths being attributed to the virus. Why is my state shut down at all right now?
So your governor can run with the big dogs like NY.
 

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So your governor can run with the big dogs like NY.
That's why we're in "lock down" here in WV.

To date, out of a population of 1,756,000 there has been 1,020 confirmed cases, 439 recovered and 32 deaths.

Of the deaths, 14 of them were from the same Nursing Home and most of the others (if not all) had a severe underlying factors...like stage 4 cancer or obesity/diabetes/cardio-vascular.
 

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10+ pages so far. In America, people should decide for themselves what risks they are willing to take in this life. Democrats and their sympathizers have always been Chicken Littles and overreact. Their solution for their is always Kontrol. I think Americans on the other hand want to err on the side of Freedom and are willing to endure the consequences.

Fearful people should quarantine themselves. End of story. If you're afraid for whatever genuine or imaginary reason, hunker the frick down for Pete's sake, but leave me out of it. If I'm not supposed to care about who sleeps with whom, why should I be burdened with the worry of who breathes on whom?

I am personally qualified to take the risks I want to take. I ride a motorcycle, for example. I am an ATGATT rider, but a motorcycle rider nevertheless. Dangerous! From another direction, as some others may have done, I have been with some women with whom I might not have intelligently engaged myself, but took the chance and lived to tell about it. I take the chances I want to take. Any American should, but the Democrats just won't have it.

The point is that we ourselves are the most qualified to judge risks for our own selves and be willing to take the consequences. It is fantasy that we can rely on solid sources of information during these days of Leftist hysteria to be able to have the best information with which to make our judgments. Still, truthful information would be useful.

For the Kontrol freaks, after they've milked this current panic for what it's worth, I think they should really start thinking that all bars and lounges should be permanently closed. I mean permanently. Look what can come from patronizing a bar: drunk driving, developing alcoholism, unwanted pregnancy (which for Democrats very often leads to murder), STDs, gun shots, knife fights, prostitution, con men, pickpockets, catching a cold, catching the Wuhan Flu, drinking stale-dated beer and watered-down spirits, the sale of illicit drugs, and walking through somebody's vomit, just to name a couple of reasons. Those places should never ever be opened again in the name of public health. Can I get an Amen? If it saves just. one. life, all Kontrol is permissible. Say Hallelujah with me!

People:
Trouble, oh we got trouble,
Right here in River City!
With a capital "T"
That rhymes with "B"
And that stands for Bars,
That stands for bars.
We've surely got trouble!
Right here in River City,
Right here!
Gotta figger out a way
To keep the young ones moral after school!
Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble...

I guess that, for right now, our loving Democrats and their sympathizers will have to be content to FUBAR this nation like never before with this bug thing.
:35: Hallelujah!

Before the governor of my state put us on "stay at home", the last time my parish met we had a sheet of paper in the gathering space for people who are able to go out and run errands for our fellow parishioners who are vulnerable due to age and underlying health conditions. People in need just have to call the church office to get matched up with someone who can run to the store for their groceries or whatever else needs getting. *That* is what we need in these times (maybe some community-minded group can do the same sort of thing for people who don't have a church, but I live in an area where it's still pretty unusual for someone to be one of the "nones").

We, in a small southern IL town, do not have the same needs as NYC or Chicago, and we do not need to have the same restrictions as those locations. It is not supposed to be about preventing people from getting infected (moving goal posts), it was supposed to be about making sure the medical facilities didn't get overwhelmed. Yet you see these hospitals setting aside beds for this "massive influx" that never comes, census dropping to below 40% of the beds occupied, and people in the medical care careers being laid off for lack of work right in the middle of this pandemic.

All the while you have hypocrisy from the "rulers" of the state, like the mayor of Chicago going to her beautician to get her hair done because she "cares about [her] hygiene". Like there aren't millions of other people in the state of Illinois who would like to get their hair done (and beauticians who would like to do hair so that they can earn an income to pay their bills and buy their groceries). I'm currently working from home (well, not right this minute because this isn't part of my work hours). Or the people in my parish who own a "non-essential" shoe repair shop. The economy is interconnected and you can't just arbitrarily declare this piece and that piece is "non-essential". Let restaurants decide -- maybe taping off every other table, checkerboard style would be a good solution to distance groups (with lots of hand washing and sanitizing as staff goes from table to table ... which should be going on regardless). Or curbside takeout is the best answer ... and let the people (customers) decide what they feel is a risk that they're willing to take and what isn't. Same with the store owners--they can decide what rules they want to make regarding admitting people (restricting to a certain number in the store at a time, closing every other self-check, putting stuff in places to enforce separation (the pet store here has a table that they put alongside the checkout to make a 6 foot separation between the clerk and the customer).

So let people decide for themselves what risks they are willing and not willing to take; and let the friends, families and neighbors of people who are too vulnerable to take risks take care of their vulnerable friends, family and neighbors. That, in my opinion, is the happy medium that we need.
 

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Some are touting Sweden as an example of what the USA should be doing but Sweden doesn't look so good. A quick check of the new cases on worldometer, I see that Sweden had their worst day ever yesterday with 812 new cases. The "new cases" number is a better indicator in that it isn't lagging nearly as much as the "Deaths" number which lags approximately 4 weeks. Will Sweden reach herd immunity in two weeks? Maybe, maybe not, I saw a new research paper this morning which indicates that a person who contracts COVID-19 has no protection from catching it again and that catching it a second time is more deadly than the first infection. If that is true, that would be about as bad as news can be.

So far, here in Colorado, things are not getting better, yesterday was the highest number of new cases yet in the state, nearly 1,000, so much for reopening which has now been postponed.
I also read the WHO report that says having antibodies for CV19 does not guarantee immunity. This is in response to countries suggesting "immunity passports". Is it surprising that the WHO wants to maintain restrictions? This is the WHO who said there is no need for travel restrictions. Masks don't work. Wear masks.Etc.

If this is correct, a vaccine is impossible. Herd immunity is impossible. This "new normal" is the new normal.

So Colorado has 1,000 new infections. What metric did your governor set to reopen your state? What infection level or death rate will be acceptable? Without that number, Colorado is living with indefinite restrictions like everyone else.
 

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My plan is to increase my whiskey internal disinfection regimen. Don't call me a hero. I'm doing this for our most vulnerable.
Sacrifices must be made.
 

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1 that's not what I said. It should be expected that the government can argue for the constitutionality of its measures when implementing them, not prove it. Especially when proof is scientifically impossible, as it is impossible to prove what measures are justified for a disease that is not understood. Based on the information available right now, no one can say with any certainty whether less restrictive measures would be effective.

2 I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think it's that that case doesn't answer all the questions posed by the COVID response. That's true, but the point is that the government can take measures that are designed to limit the spread of disease without having absolute scientific proof that those measures are correct and harmless.

As to your examples, I don't know if each contrasting pair applies to a specific jurisdiction or not. Broadly I'd say that food sales are less restricted because people need them immediately to survive, which is not true of church or seeds. I'm sure there are plenty of illogical rules being implemented and should be corrected, as is always true in everything.

As to letting business owners come up with their own solutions, again, maybe that's the best in the long run, but it depends on the epidemiology.
I believe you have misinterpreted Jacobson. The holding is not that there must be scientific certainty to enact measures. In fact, rarely is there scientific certainty/proof. In the 115 years since Jacobson was decided, however, the Supreme Court has fleshed out tests to determine whether the steps taken are constitutional, and what levels or review apply.

And again, here the burden is on the government to show that its steps are narrowly tailored and least restrictive means. Here's some examples:

Banning mass gatherings for church service.
Serve compelling governmental interest? Yes, reduces spread (note I'm not concerned with scientific proof)
Narrowly Tailored and least restrictive? No. A complete ban. Government can allow parking lot worship while attendees are in their cars, or, alternatively, the maximum number of attendees to a mass can be reduced.

(Note the above example completely ignores First amendment issues, which is another constitutional hurdle).

Banning non-essential businesses from operation.
Serve compelling governmental interest? Yes
Narrowly Tailored, least restrictive? No. There's no test for what is "non-essential." It's arbitrarily decided (why are pot dispensaries essential?). Moreover, the maximum number of persons in a store location can be limited, and social distancing policies can be enforced (I've seen this in many stores here in Georgia).
 

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Far UV is showing promise too, although not on man immediate basis, but it will be scalable if it works:

Columbia University Far UV Light


“Far-UVC light has the potential to be a ‘game changer,’” said David Brenner, professor of radiation biophysics and director of the center. “It can be safely used in occupied public spaces, and it kills pathogens in the air before we can breathe them in.”
 

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End the Panic

The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.
It has five key "Take-Aways" of note.
 

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Gee whiz.... why can't folks stop injecting logic and common sense into this media driven "MY GAWD! We are all gonna DIIIEEE!!! Only the government can save us!!!" frenzied panic? I mean it kinda spoils all the feeeellllzzz........
 

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Far UV is showing promise too, although not on man immediate basis, but it will be scalable if it works:

Columbia University Far UV Light
My concern is, what else does it do? Maybe find out in 20 years everyone in those UV-radiated places develop cancers? Melanoma rates skyrocket? Cataracts develop early and in mass?
 

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...Banning mass gatherings for church service.
Serve compelling governmental interest? Yes, reduces spread (note I'm not concerned with scientific proof)
Narrowly Tailored and least restrictive? No. A complete ban. Government can allow parking lot worship while attendees are in their cars, or, alternatively, the maximum number of attendees to a mass can be reduced.

...Banning non-essential businesses from operation.
Server compelling governmental interest? Yes
Narrowly Tailored, least restrictive? No. There's no test for what is "non-essential." It's arbitrarily decided (why are pot dispensaries essential?). Moreover, the maximum number of persons in a store location can be limited, and social distancing policies can be enforced (I've seen this in many stores here in Georgia).
On drive-in church services, a federal court has already ruled they must be allowed.

On allowing churches and stores to remain open with restrictions in place, that might be effective, but is it effective enough? There's no way to say with current data, but it's reasonable to assume that it's not as effective as closure, so saying that closure is not the least restrictive measure is just a contrary assumption. I think a court would give the government a lot of discretion in setting the rules, until enough data is available to determine the truth of it.

And whatever restrictions were chosen, the same complaints could be leveled again. One person per thousand square feet? My business won't make any money, make it 500 square feet, that's less restrictive. Etc.

I'll also point out that government has a compelling interest in both fighting disease and encouraging commerce. A balance has to be struck between the two, and we're really just arguing over the details of the balance. Economic hardship is an inevitability in this case, even if government doesn't mandate any restrictions at all.
 

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Mayor DeBlasio said this morning on FOX that the Federal Government owes it to NYC to bail them out of the financial mess they are in. When asked how much that would take he said, "about 36 billion".

Oh, and look who's he's appointed to head the task force to address, "racial inequity"...his wife.

The corruption that's going to come out of this is going to be astounding.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/26/de-blasio-appoints-wife-head-of-coronavirus-racial-inequality-task-force/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR27k6ZEunnudBetOgiWiuMtZrJlOmi0V170YbPjhO74Mo7c2GSuwA8SSCE
 

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Mayor DeBlasio said this morning on FOX that the Federal Government owes it to NYC to bail them out of the financial mess they are in. When asked how much that would take he said, "about 36 billion".

Oh, and look who's he's appointed to head the task force to address, "racial inequity"...his wife.

The corruption that's going to come out of this is going to be astounding.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/26/de-blasio-appoints-wife-head-of-coronavirus-racial-inequality-task-force/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR27k6ZEunnudBetOgiWiuMtZrJlOmi0V170YbPjhO74Mo7c2GSuwA8SSCE
What’s funny about that is all of the decisions that led to their need to be bailed out were made in NY, not DC.
 

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I posted this earlier, probably on another thread, but this, to me, is the answer as to why we are not meeting in the middle and I will raise my hand and admit I am as guilty as anyone. This is communications/negotiation 101. The Venn diagram below was posted by Liberty Doll, a libertarian, pro-gun video blogger and it is the wisest thing I have encountered in this whole crisis. Her idea is a that we could come to a consensus if we could all get in the center of this diagram.

And let me be clear, that does not mean giving insincere lip service to one or two of the circles, but rather really showing you understand and empathize what people in all three circles are concerned about. The idea is that if you are truly a right thinking, caring, patriotic person, you show equal concern for all three circles. If you can't do that, don't expect anyone to meet you in the middle. That includes not cherry picking data from experts that only support your position. The center of the diagram is, by definition, "the happy medium." If you can't get there yourself, don't expect anyone else to meet you there.

Venn 1.JPG
 

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So, dying with symptoms consistent with COVID but not having tested positive, in a large part due to limited availability of testing, means that person did not die of COVID? Got it!
After talking with people that work at hospitals they are saying that hospitals get money for every time they put Covid19 as cause on death certificates. I can't verify that is happening but if it is true then that would definitely skew the mortality rate.
 

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I agree, but 52,000 body bags is also a lot of body bags for the short time we've been dealing with this. At this rate we'll be looking at 500,000 deaths in the US by end of the year. And I suspect the 'collateral damage' number that is being considered by our Govt is probably in the 250,000 range.
The experts say we are on the down swing and even the gloom and doom experts that said we would be over 200,000 deaths are now saying we should be well under 100,000 and a percentage of those are not actual caused by Covid19.
 

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Let's assume for a minute that we agree that the posted Venn diagram is legitimate. What would meeting in the middle of those arcs look like? I don't pretend to know the answers. I have some opinions, but that's all they are. What would that look like to you?
 
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