Defensive Carry banner

1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
I do question if the performance ammunition currently marketed is truly so much better than it was a generation back. We're told it is.

I can't imagine that 147 grain 9mm "duty ammunition's" recoil is so different than the cheapest 115 grain 9mm practice ammunition that it causes such problems with the users shooting it for qualification or on the street.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,981 Posts
Most of the local LEO's I know here carry 45's loaded up with 230 gr gold dots
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,556 Posts
My brother was a cop on a small town force. The firearms they carried were strictly at the whim of the chief. One chief wanted them to all carry Glocks in 40 caliber and when he left they all went to S&W 357s. It was all based on opinions.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,171 Posts
I would expect that the majority of cops carry whatever they're issued or told to carry. Beyond that by and large cops seem to have no more firearms knowledge and experience than your average citizen, so I don't generally ask cops for CCW firearm advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,686 Posts
Most of the cops I know couldn't hit a barn with a handful of BBs...from inside the barn!. They're okay guys and all that, but they are NOT well-practiced pistoleros. We (or at least I) do the gun-thing because it's fun entertainment that might (possibly) someday save my life. To a LEO, I guess recreational shooting is like asking a mailman to go...for a walk. :blink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,129 Posts
One night out on the town, after a drink or two (not intoxicated, but feeling social) I decided to talk to a few of the cops patrolling the bars (it was a college town). I asked what they were issued and they all said .40, but they are switching to 9mm because of "betta boolet tech". I then asked one if he knew what that meant and that was the end of his knowledge. He told me that's what his department told him. That was when my friend dragged me away before I said something stupid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,377 Posts
One VERY big deciding factor for mid-sized to larger agencies for both ammo, guns, & other equipment is what is on the state bid. Agencies that buy items off the state bid get VERY attractive pricing, usually it is much better price than what an agency can get directly from the manufacturer. IME it boils down to $$$ first and agency needs second. Very rarely do the cops on the street get to have input on what guns, calibers, and type of ammo they carry! Just my .02 worth!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Most of the cops I know couldn't hit a barn with a handful of BBs...from inside the barn!. They're okay guys and all that, but they are NOT well-practiced pistoleros. We (or at least I) do the gun-thing because it's fun entertainment that might (possibly) someday save my life. To a LEO, I guess recreational shooting is like asking a mailman to go...for a walk. :blink:
You not right man LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,117 Posts
I can't wrap my head around the word "recoil" and 9mm used in the same sentence.

He is right about the HydraShoks, in that they are still in wide use. I still have a box I was issued before I retired last year.

But I do not see the core/jacket seperation being as big a deal as it's made out to be.... but caliber does make up
the difference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
The argument for .40's being superior to 9mm due to reported failure to stops has been around forever and is finally starting to change back towards 9mm being acceptable.

I've seen so many people have issues qualifying with Glock's in .40, even Sig's. Granted they were fairly inexperienced or incompetent shooters but still, invest your time and build confidence or go to a gun everyone is confident using-IF everyone carries the same firearm. Even when my arthritis was at it's peak in my fingers, wrists and elbows the over pressure sucked and I began to catch myself limp-wristing. I ended up switching to 9mm and was able to correct myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,117 Posts
The argument for .40's being superior to 9mm due to reported failure to stops has been around forever and is finally starting to change back towards 9mm being acceptable.
The driving force behind the switch is a culmination of things, one of which is the "one stop shot" solution has been abandoned.

My personal opinion is because LE is becoming more bogged down in dealing with social matters, that training time on the range has been replaced with classroom instruction on the social legal matters.
Since the inception of the Tail Hook scandal, training on all kinds of BS with a Federal mandate has caused marksmanship skill in the ranks to decline to the point that, if the officers are having to shoot them x number of times to finally get a good hit, might as well do it cheaper.

Then there are the equality laws......don't get me started on that.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
444 Posts
A lot of times the type and brand of gun a Police department use is decided by cost, nothing more. Unfortunately some departments also don't change anything until a tragedy happens. Take for instance, the Officer Scott Gadell assassination years ago. Years ago the NYPD only carried .38 revolvers and used drop pouches to reload. P.O. Gadell was in a gun battle with a perp that had a semi-auto. Gadell took cover and on one knee was trying to do a combat reload when the perp realized he was reloading and ran up and shot him in the head and killed him. The department in all it's wisdom didn't up grade the NYPD to semi-autos, but they did give us 2 speed loaders to carry for our 6 shot revolvers. Later in the 90's they finally let us carry Glock 19's, so our bullet capacity went from 6 rounds in your service, plus 2 six round speed loaders to a Glock 19 with 16 total rounds and two 15 round magazines. Then they became worried about our full metal jackets going through perps and killing innocent victims behind them or ricochets in the subways or projects. That's when we were given Speer jacketed hollow points. The extra rounds were helpful, especially since the 12 lb trigger pull on our Glocks made it more difficult for most Cops to hit what they were aiming at.
On a personal note, we would bring gang bangers that had been shot to the emergency room and when the doctors went to work on them, we would see they had several old bullet holes in them. The majority of the time they had been previously shot with a 9mm. After seeing that so often, I lost a lot of faith in the 9mm's stopping power. Now that I'm retired, my Glock 19 is in the safe and I walk around with a .45 or a .357, but that's just my personal, unscientific preference.---Sturgis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,117 Posts
A lot of times the type and brand of gun a Police department use is decided by cost, nothing more. Unfortunately some departments also don't change anything until a tragedy happens. Take for instance, the Officer Scott Gadell assassination years ago. Years ago the NYPD only carried .38 revolvers and used drop pouches to reload. P.O. Gadell was in a gun battle with a perp that had a semi-auto. Gadell took cover and on one knee was trying to do a combat reload when the perp realized he was reloading and ran up and shot him in the head and killed him. The department in all it's wisdom didn't up grade the NYPD to semi-autos, but they did give us 2 speed loaders to carry for our 6 shot revolvers. Later in the 90's they finally let us carry Glock 19's, so our bullet capacity went from 6 rounds in your service, plus 2 six round speed loaders to a Glock 19 with 16 total rounds and two 15 round magazines. Then they became worried about our full metal jackets going through perps and killing innocent victims behind them or ricochets in the subways or projects. That's when we were given Speer jacketed hollow points. The extra rounds were helpful, especially since the 12 lb trigger pull on our Glocks made it more difficult for most Cops to hit what they were aiming at.
On a personal note, we would bring gang bangers that had been shot to the emergency room and when the doctors went to work on them, we would see they had several old bullet holes in them. The majority of the time they had been previously shot with a 9mm. After seeing that so often, I lost a lot of faith in the 9mm's stopping power. Now that I'm retired, my Glock 19 is in the safe and I walk around with a .45 or a .357, but that's just my personal, unscientific preference.---Sturgis
Ya'll got some exceptional eyesight up there to be able to tell the difference in a 9mm scar from a 380, 32, 38, ect...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bad Bob

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
The driving force behind the switch is a culmination of things, one of which is the "one stop shot" solution has been abandoned.

My personal opinion is because LE is becoming more bogged down in dealing with social matters, that training time on the range has been replaced with classroom instruction on the social legal matters.
Since the inception of the Tail Hook scandal, training on all kinds of BS with a Federal mandate has caused marksmanship skill in the ranks to decline to the point that, if the officers are having to shoot them x number of times to finally get a good hit, might as well do it cheaper.

Then there are the equality laws......don't get me started on that.
There it is! A day, if that, of firearms qualifications. Maybe some skill building if the instructor is motivated enough. Yet the police are expected to shoot the knife out of someone's hand (like that won't cause lifelong issues to the perp the respective department will have to pay for). Crap, how many police officers even clean their gun between qualifications if they aren't made to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
324 Posts
The driving force behind the switch is a culmination of things, one of which is the "one stop shot" solution has been abandoned.

My personal opinion is because LE is becoming more bogged down in dealing with social matters, that training time on the range has been replaced with classroom instruction on the social legal matters.
Since the inception of the Tail Hook scandal, training on all kinds of BS with a Federal mandate has caused marksmanship skill in the ranks to decline to the point that, if the officers are having to shoot them x number of times to finally get a good hit, might as well do it cheaper.

Then there are the equality laws......don't get me started on that.
The same thing is effecting our military, when getting ready to deploy and chain of command is more worried about Sexual harassment classes than whether or not the soldiers can shoot, move, and communicate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,686 Posts
IMHO, there are FAAARRRR tooooo many bean-counters & paper-pushers making critical decisions for frontline LEOs. That goes for the military as well. Just because the folks tasked with the final decision are the mayor's in-laws does NOT qualify their opinion as "expert". If you wanna' know what a door-kicker wants to carry in a real-world gunfight? Wouldn't it make better sense to ask...a real-world door-kicker? :blink:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,639 Posts
In the smaller town I worked for, the decision was left to the senior range officer/instructor, who made recommendations to the chief [ who took his advice ]. So the dept issued glock 17's. When I transferred to a fairly large city, the decision on what would be allowed to carry was on the chief, who took advice from several senior sgt's and the two full time training officers. Then we carried sig 226's, the det's 228's/small revos.

In the small bedroom community, we could carry anything at or above 38/9 that we could quall with. I qualled with a 38 snub [ so I could carry a BUG ], g17, sig 226/228, and a 1911. I normally carried the sig 226, then later sig 228 and only occasionally carried the 1911 or g17.

40 only took off in leo circles due to the feds moving to it. Known fact most local agencies follow the feds lead over time. Unfortunately, the feds change guns and calibers like their underwear, there's no rhime or reason to it other than being reactionary to outside forces.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,908 Posts
The driving force behind the switch is a culmination of things, one of which is the "one stop shot" solution has been abandoned.

My personal opinion is because LE is becoming more bogged down in dealing with social matters, that training time on the range has been replaced with classroom instruction on the social legal matters.
Since the inception of the Tail Hook scandal, training on all kinds of BS with a Federal mandate has caused marksmanship skill in the ranks to decline to the point that, if the officers are having to shoot them x number of times to finally get a good hit, might as well do it cheaper.

Then there are the equality laws......don't get me started on that.
I got nothing to add, this was just worth repeating
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,686 Posts
Let's remember wayyy back when. The FBI decided they wanted (needed?) more juice than the 9mm afforded. The 10mm was "the answer". But it was, in the original Norma loadings, too hot for the unfamiliar or weaker arms/hands to handle, so they wanted yet another "answer". At the same time, more women were becoming frontline LEOs. The 40 S&W handgun's grips (a shortened 10mm) fit smaller hands, still afforded increased mag capacity & offered (theoretically) better ballistics. GLOCK read the tea leaves and flooded the LEO market (who followed the FBI's lead) with deeply-discounted department prices chambered in the latest "answer". LEO bean counters JUMPED on them, so-much-so that competitors for the LEO market (Smith & Wesson, SIG, etc.) caught GLOCK's coattails and followed suit with 40 S&W-chambered offerings. To a (much) lesser degree, it's the same story for the .357 SIG. Now the swing is heading back to 9mm, and (for lucky departments) the .45 acp. As for the NEXT "answer"? Who knows? :blink:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eric357 and AzQkr
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top